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» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » AES cables (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: AES cables
Brendan Penny
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 121
From: Bundoora, Australia
Registered: Dec 2008


 - posted 11-04-2009 05:03 PM      Profile for Brendan Penny   Email Brendan Penny   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does anyone have a good source for long pre-made 25 D-sub AES cables? Alternatively, if I was to build myself, what cable options do I have?

Need to do some runs from projector pedestal to existing audio rack. Approx 10 to 15m runs reqd

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Kevin Fairchild
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 116
From: Kennewick, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2008


 - posted 11-04-2009 07:06 PM      Profile for Kevin Fairchild   Email Kevin Fairchild   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
www.monoprice.com search for db25.

I get all my cables for our digital equipment there. Some people may call this a no-no, but I have never had a problem with any of their cables. They are inexpensive as well. You can get a 100 foot cable for $14US. Go nuts.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12207
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 11-04-2009 09:19 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I did a search on DB25 and didn't turn up any AES cables.

But anyway...have always made our own. It is certainly doable.

We use Belden 1803F (4-pair AES snake)...aka "Barney Cable" after its purple jacket.

We use AMP brand Dsubs, crimps...etc...never a problem. However, if you are going to just make one or two...get out the soldering iron and do it the hard way...they will work just as good.

However, you must use AES cable for the longer runs or you will be sorry...it is the only way you are going to maintain the 110-Ohm impedance. I've even seen a DCinema server company supply ordinary audio snake cable instead of the AES stuff...didn't work reliably either. When I got to the theatre...they couldn't figure it out (why it would only sometimes work)....I made and installed the correct cable and whola, no more problems.

Anyway...Belden 1803F comes in 500 and 1000-foot rolls. Some suppliers may sell you "cut lengths" and there are other cable manufactures that you might find easier to source...just make sure it is real AES cable with a 110-Ohm impedance. It should feel and look fatter than normal audio cable of the same gauge.

Steve

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Kevin Fairchild
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 116
From: Kennewick, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2008


 - posted 11-05-2009 02:18 AM      Profile for Kevin Fairchild   Email Kevin Fairchild   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
[Confused] Don't ask me how I happened to skip over the AES part of your post... even when it was the topic header. So forget my earlier reply. [Smile]

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Chase Taylor
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 173
From: Troy, Alabama, USA
Registered: Mar 2001


 - posted 11-05-2009 10:22 AM      Profile for Chase Taylor   Author's Homepage   Email Chase Taylor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I did a test on a monoprice cable for the aes output for digital cinema since the cables are so cheap. The cable is 25 ft long and has been in line for 1 year now without a dropout. I certainly understand what Steve is saying and can't disagree with him, but with what I have experienced with the monoprice db25 cable for the price and ease of use you can't knock it to much.

Chase

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Demetris Thoupis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1240
From: Aradippou, Larnaca, Cyprus
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 11-05-2009 01:13 PM      Profile for Demetris Thoupis   Email Demetris Thoupis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's the same thing with Dataport and Processor Out Monitor In link cables. For example Dataport cable is not VGA as most people thing as the shielded pairs are not like the VGA in pins 1,2,3 (hot) and 6,7,8 (shield) but in a different combination. Also a PC store will gladdly sell a 25pin Male to Female cable used for Parallel connection and it can easily be used for transfering audio from Processor to Monitor e.t.c BUT its not the correct cable. It does not have the correct impedance and it does not have shielded pairs at it should. The same goes for AES. Just order them from Dolby.
Demetris

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Brendan Penny
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 121
From: Bundoora, Australia
Registered: Dec 2008


 - posted 11-05-2009 08:48 PM      Profile for Brendan Penny   Email Brendan Penny   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for those suggestions. Think we will just order a big drum of 'Barney cable' and do it ourselves just to be on the safe side!!

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Pete Naples
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1546
From: Dunfermline, Scotland
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 11-07-2009 04:53 AM      Profile for Pete Naples   Email Pete Naples   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's what we do. For us, as we mainly don't work in multiplex buildings, it is often the case that the server and processor are not in the same rack, so a drum of cable is a must.

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3057
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 12-23-2009 03:59 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
I did a search on DB25 and didn't turn up any AES cables.

The use of these cables and connectors for multiple AES streams seems to be quite common; I've seen them used in other applications than digital cinema, but is it actually part of the AES3 spec? If not, are the pin connections standardised, or do different equipment manufacturers each go their own way on this?

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12207
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 12-23-2009 09:16 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The DB25 version of the AES audio is a DCinema thing. The offical connector for AES3 remains the "XLR" style. The DB25 connector is popular for its size and availability (cheap, satisfies CE, 16-channels of AES audio can be used with it). It also easily converts to ribbon cables...and on and on and on.

It is like the 6-channel analog cable on the DB25 (unbalanced)...its "pin-out" was derived due to how the CP200's audio laid out on the JM11/JM21 connectors and no other reason. The CP200 used 2x10 header connector with ribbons...when those same cables have a DB25 squeezed on to the ribbon, whola, you get Pin-1=E, Pin-2 = "Q" or Right-Surround...etc. And that is how Cinema got that pinout that shows up on every "6-channel" input expecting unbalanced 300mV (again the CP200) audio.

The Balanced DB25 pinout for cinema came from the folks at THX. Their original booth monitor the 3417 started that pinout and companies like Sony followed suit and even Dolby got on board with it on the CP650...again, the "standard was formed."

Steve

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3057
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 12-23-2009 03:49 PM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve,

I did a search for the cable you recommended:

web page

It's quite expensive; not too bad for 4-pair, but look at the price, size and weight for 32-pair. Using lots of wires to transmit multiple digital signals of relatively low bandwidth seems like a rather makeshift way of doing things. Why didn't the AES produce a standard for transmitting multi-channel sound? Let's start with the AES3id standard; I'm not sure how much bandwidth 75 Ohm co-ax can handle, but I do know it can cope with HD-SDI with 16 channels - 8 pairs - of embedded audio, and I also know it can handle 3G-SDI, though I'm not sure about embedded audio with that. If we are talking about audio only then it's clearly going to be able to handle many channels, on one thin, cheap, lightweight, flexible, easy to handle and terminate cable. If you need a longer distance than you can do with co-ax then you could send the whole thing down a single fibre, tens of km of it if you want to. A multi-channel version of AES3id seems like an obvious next step; using these thick multi-pair cables seems to be doing things the hard way. Am I missing something?

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Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God

Posts: 2956
From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted 12-23-2009 05:19 PM      Profile for Tony Bandiera Jr   Email Tony Bandiera Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Contact Bevan at Moving Images Technology 714-751-7998 they can build you any cable, any length and their prices are very good. Tell him Tony sent you. [Smile]

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12207
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 12-23-2009 05:39 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey, you are talking to the HDSDI poster child here. I mean picture and sound on an easy to make/buy cable? What isn't to like? I only wish HDMI and DVI had gone that route!!!! What a pain in the ass they are!

As for the cable, our pricing is a bit better than what you are experiencing and we also make cables (and have even done so for manufacturers like MIT). We are not in the raw cable business (but have been known to sell it by the foot) but do make finished assemblies of some cables...certainly Dolby Digital (film) cables, AES audio (coax or twisted pair) as well as multi-channel analog as we stock 6, 8 and 12 channel snake cable too. We also do Cat5 stuff but that generally is going to be cheaper (pre-fab) at other places. We do stock Skew-Free cable for doing "Cat5" like cables for A/V purposes (won't work for data).

Steve

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Brendan Penny
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 121
From: Bundoora, Australia
Registered: Dec 2008


 - posted 12-23-2009 06:46 PM      Profile for Brendan Penny   Email Brendan Penny   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We ended up just making our own after everyone's advice. Wasn't too much of a pain in the end. Running cable through duct work without 25pin d sub heads on was actually a blessing in disguise!

I would recommend heat shrinking on each connection to be on the safe side though.

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Dan Herron
Film Handler

Posts: 7
From: Fenton, Mo., USA
Registered: Mar 2009


 - posted 04-02-2010 05:45 AM      Profile for Dan Herron   Email Dan Herron   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What model Amp connectors do you use? Also what pins and tooling? I will need to rewire or replace some cables for 7.1.

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