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» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Sony Marketing of 4K. Have a look. (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Sony Marketing of 4K. Have a look.
James B Gardiner
Film Handler

Posts: 91
From: North Altona, Victoria, Ausrtalia
Registered: Feb 2009


 - posted 08-08-2009 09:40 PM      Profile for James B Gardiner   Email James B Gardiner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was surfing youtube today and came across this.

Sony Prof Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/mysonyprofessional

This stuff is shot very well, and most likely with top end Sony Kit. So it does look great..

We all know here that the Sony 4K solutions has its issues. Issues that make any knowledgeable cinema owner, in general, step back from Sony projections solutions considering them not ready for massive deplyment. However, we all agree that Sony has amazing potential.

In many ways this is propaganda, but still. Marketing is Marketing and this has been done well.

James

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-08-2009 09:50 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It doesn't come up....

quote: James B Gardiner
Issues that make any knowledgeable cinema owner, in general, step back from Sony projections solutions considering them not ready for massive deplyment.
Perhaps not down under but here in the states at least two major chains have bought a combined 12,000 Sonys. So I wouldn't exactly call it a solution that isn't ready for deployment. Another chain here in the states is paying 73K for their 4K sonys ... Now thats basically the same price as buying a big 2K projector and associated equipment. Which would I buy if I had to choose today? The Sony for sure because it has more marketing potential than 2K has(for the moment). In reality though I'm telling everyone to wait it out at least another year because something big HAS TO GIVE in the pricing structure of 2K D-Cinema to fit in 4K DLP. NO one under the sun is going to pay even bigger bucks for 4K DLP...

Mark

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James B Gardiner
Film Handler

Posts: 91
From: North Altona, Victoria, Ausrtalia
Registered: Feb 2009


 - posted 08-08-2009 10:22 PM      Profile for James B Gardiner   Email James B Gardiner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I fixed the link in the first post.

Just because Sony are selling the farm does not make the equipment "WORK" better. A clear evaluation of the Sony solutions leaves a LOT to be desired. As some one who is a technology developer and knows a lot about DCI, cinema operation and Sony solution.
Sorry, I do not consider Sony solutions ready. There are just to many issues.
I'm not saying it does not work. It does, especially if you don;t car about the DCI technical level of acceptance.
It is also very propitiatory using a lot of proprietary standards that 2K systems use open standards etc.
(For example, you can only use the Sony (SMS) DCI player with a Sony projector. No competition here.)

There is no WAY the kit, which likely comes in as 2x the weight compared to 2k solution, is being sold at a commercial cost. The way they got FIPS etc. Just so many things that could explode in your face down the road.

And if you did not know, the two big contracts Sony just made has an out clause. If another player comes out with a competing 4K system, the cinema chains in question have the option to re-evaluate the contract.

When I found this out, it kind of now makes sense that TI have announced 4K so early. It makes the Sony 4K announcements hollow.

The Sony 4K kit is great and a good start, but I am not compelled to support its adoption for anything other then niche areas where 4k makes a difference. Not until they polish the solution and open it up.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 08-09-2009 12:03 AM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ahh, the whole 4K thing doesn't mean squat. It's numerical masturbation largely.

Hollywood studios still, by and large, render nearly all of their digital intermediates and CGI in mere, barely better than HDTV quality 2K resolution. They do it because it is cheaper and still "DIGITAL." So therefore it is perfect. Why bother with 4K perfect when you already have perfect at 2K?

In the end, a lot of 4K projectors are going to be installed without much of any native 4K rendered content to show. But the 4K hype will be out there anyway, just like the huge "70mm" logos for all the 35mm to 70mm blowups in the 80's. Nevermind anyone actually bother shooting a movie in a real 65mm/70mm format.
[Roll Eyes]

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Cameron Glendinning
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia
Registered: Dec 2005


 - posted 08-09-2009 01:03 AM      Profile for Cameron Glendinning   Email Cameron Glendinning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
James, what exactly are the issues with Sony's 4k system? The few issues that I have heard about do seem manageable, ie tricky to set up and even a bit complicated to load the shows. The few people I know who work with it even like it! So I am interested to hear more detailed criticism about its pros and cons. I would be interested your knowledgeable point of view or anyones hands on experiences.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

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From: Music City
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 - posted 08-09-2009 08:14 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
The few people I know who work with it even like it!
Ditto here...

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Demetris Thoupis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1240
From: Aradippou, Larnaca, Cyprus
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 08-09-2009 01:37 PM      Profile for Demetris Thoupis   Email Demetris Thoupis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sony always had this "our system is fully incompatible with anything else" tradition and in D-Cine this is still the case. 4K would only benefit cinemas with a screen more than 15m width!
Demetris

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 08-09-2009 08:00 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Demetris,

Again, It isn't about resolution at all. Dude... this is the exhibition industry!!! The cheapest assholes on earth run the majority of this buisness [Frown] . It's about price and nothing else. AMC got them so cheap! Like 56K per system [Eek!] . So far Sony is the cheapest and right now Sony's 4K 2-D system is darn close to the same price as a large 2K 2-D system even in single quantity. For say 1200 to 2000 USD more I would certainly buy the Sony and exploit the marketing ability it affords(for the moment!). I also personally feel that even a 25 to 30' wide screen would benefit from 4K be it DLP or Sony. Smaller than that it again would depend on how much extra it costs. I've seen 70mm on screens that small and 70mm still makes a huge difference!!!

Mark

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James B Gardiner
Film Handler

Posts: 91
From: North Altona, Victoria, Ausrtalia
Registered: Feb 2009


 - posted 08-11-2009 07:44 AM      Profile for James B Gardiner   Email James B Gardiner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My main issues about the Sony Kit are
1. Sony do not appear to be selling the kit at commercials rates. Its more about industry dominance. I cannot see this being a good thing for the industry when things change.
2. there are a lot of non-standard and proprietary implementations in the Sony system. This goes completely against the ideas behind DCI.
3. The system has a much higher running cost.
4. The colour consistency across the screen is not within DCI spec. I have heard comments from quite a few people who have notices this during general content playback even before using test images that should bring this to your attention. I have been told this has been addressed in the latest systems, but I don;t know what to believe.
5. In general Sony kit is always the most expensive but arguably the best. If Sony does archive dominance, expect the same marketing model. Is it compatible with cinema exibition?

My issues revolve around the stability for our industry, not that the kit is not fit for use.

An example of my issues is that, during showest I heard that the Sony Stand kept the Projector/LAMP on during the show day and night. This was to ensure the colour consistency issue did not surface.. Which is connected to heating up and down during day to day use.

I do remember being on the floor late at night and the Projector still spinning its fans. So I am inclined to believe this.

Smoke end mirrors..

James

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Lyle Romer
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From: Davie, FL, USA
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 - posted 08-11-2009 08:19 AM      Profile for Lyle Romer   Email Lyle Romer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
According to Sony's list there are currently 89 Regal and 43 AMC locations with the Sony 4k projection system installed. I don't know if that means all screens or not but I know at least some locations are.

Although anything is possible, I can't imagine that hundreds of units would be installed that don't meet DCI spec or require running bulbs 24/7.

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Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God

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From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted 08-11-2009 12:24 PM      Profile for Tony Bandiera Jr   Email Tony Bandiera Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Remember people, this is Sony, the same fine folks who screwed everybody who got into SDDS....and a great price won't mean squat when (not if) Sony drops all support for the machines and leaves them all with a very expensive boat anchor.

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Lyle Romer
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From: Davie, FL, USA
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 - posted 08-11-2009 01:49 PM      Profile for Lyle Romer   Email Lyle Romer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think this is a little different than SDDS. The SDDS system was purpose built JUST for 35mm digital sound. Sony uses the SXRD imagers for other things. As for the server, it can be replaced by somebody else. The Doremi can be upgraded to 4k now and integrated into the Sony projector if one really wanted to do that. The only reason the server is integrated is that there was no "cinelink" encryption for a 4k stream so they had to lock the cables inside for DCI security BS.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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 - posted 08-11-2009 10:04 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: James B Gardiner
Sony do not appear to be selling the kit at commercials rates.
You don't call 73K USD or even 83K USD a commercial rate. Here the 73K is the same price as a fairly large 2K system.

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David Kilderry
Master Film Handler

Posts: 355
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 08-12-2009 01:48 AM      Profile for David Kilderry   Author's Homepage   Email David Kilderry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I consider that Sony at the moment have a large marketing advantage, to the average cinema consumer 4k is better than 2k.

My 4k multiplex will have the advantage over the 2k multiplex across the road.

A large 4k exhibition footprint will now put pressure on the pipe blockage that now rests with digital intermediates and the entire post chain as Bobby says. Studios have shown they will do large format shoots for Batman, Trans. 2 etc The 4k sites will be better able to capitalise on this.....and there is more coming.

To me, the perspective buyer of a 2k/4k set-up, I want bang for my buck and reliability. If Sony can deliver these then they have my attention. It does not bother me that their pricing may be subsidised.

The old JVC Hughes units we (the company I was with back then) bought back in 1999 were hugely subsidised.

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Lyle Romer
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From: Davie, FL, USA
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 - posted 08-12-2009 09:59 AM      Profile for Lyle Romer   Email Lyle Romer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
With the number of 4k installs going in, I'd be surprised if we didn't start seeing at least the tent pole product being produced in 4k by mid next year.

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