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This topic comprises 3 pages: 1 2 3
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Author
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Topic: "Cheap" 2nd screen 3D
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Julio Roberto
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 938
From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2008
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posted 05-19-2009 06:16 PM
quote:
Effective only through July 15th, XpanD will offer the second 3D system in each participating complex at half-price based on prices in effect preceding this announcement. With nearly 800 installations globally, XpanD utilizes active 3D glasses, which are sold separately. XpanD recently launched their newest model, the X101 Series, which it believes offers the most superior stereoscopic viewing in the market, along with an array of special features, including replacement batteries and security tags. The ecology-minded reusable glasses have a sleek and durable design that movie patrons are sure to favor.
If I understood right, the deal is as follows: You have a 3D screen in your complex, no matter what system (i.e. Dolby or RealD or Master Image or XpanD), and you qualify for setting up a second screen to 3D with XpanD at half the price.
XpanD system, very popular outside the USA, doesn't require any special screens like Dolby (but they all benefit from high gain screens, as the glasses cut off a lot of light). Similar to Dolby, the glasses are very expensive and thus require collection and cleaning for re-use. Also, XpanD glasses need occasional inexpensive batteries replacement.
The system can easily move around auditoriums as it works with any screen and not only silver and all it's needed is to plug an interface box into the projector and place a little tranmitter next to the booth projection window.
Main dissadvantage is the cost of glasses and thus the risk of lost/damage, etc. It compares fine with other systems in brightness, etc. It perhaps "flickers" more than others, but not really an issue much more than it is in other systems. Ghosting performance is comparable (Dolby and Imax is better, though).
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Julio Roberto
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 938
From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2008
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posted 05-19-2009 06:52 PM
Well, according to their statement
quote:
With nearly 800 installations globally,
In the USA there are about 1200 3-D installations combining RealD/Dolby/XpanD/MasterImage. At least that's the number quoted in the last conference about 3D I attended last month. Perhaps 1400(+Imax) or so by now.
So I'd say if it is true, and I have no strong reason to believe otherwise, I'd say XpanD is a fairly popular 3D system outside the USA.
It certainly has a much larger market share than Master Image ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
EDIT: Seems the count for all 3D equipped screens in the USA, including Imax, is 2,080 currently. As we know, there was a huge rush for the Monsters Vs Aliens movie recently. Still, recent 3D movies like Disney's Jonas Bros only opened in 1276 screens and Battle for Terra in 1159 (including 2D engagements).
PS: In Spain (population 46 million) there are about 90 3-D Dcinemas, including 4 Imax, out of about 4200 cinema screens total. At least 23 are XpanD, about 20 Dolby, and the rest mostly RealD.
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Julio Roberto
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 938
From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2008
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posted 05-20-2009 06:54 AM
For what it's worth, and in case it helps anyone with how popular some equipment is in the global marketplace, here is a fairly complete and recent list of 3D screens in Spain. Out of the ~4200 in the whole country, less than 90 are digital 3D. Just a couple of months ago, they were only 40. It lists the city, name of the complex, screen, price of 3D show admission and projector/server/3D system when known.
A Coruña Filmax A Coruña ??€ 2K: Christie DOREMI XpanD
Alicante Cinesa Panoramis 3D (sala 7) 9,90€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Benidorm IMF Finestrat (sala 2) 6,50€ 2K Dolby 3D
Elche ABC Elx (sala 1) 8,60€ 2K Dolby 3D
San Juan de Alicante Cines AANA (sala 1) 9,00€ 2K Dolby 3D?
San Juan de Alicante Cines AANA (sala 5) 9,00€ 2K Dolby 3D?
Oviedo Yelmo Cineplex Los Prados (sala IMAX) 9,70€ IMAX MPX IMAX 3D
Oviedo Yelmo Cineplex Los Prados (sala 9) 9,70€ 2K Christie DC2000 DOREMI XpanD
Oviedo Cinesa Parque Principado 3D (sala 3) 9,90€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Mérida Cinesa El Foro 3D (sala 5) 8,70€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Badalona Megacine (sala 8) 9,50€ 2K ??
Barcelona IMAX Port Vell 12,10€ 70mm/15perf IMAX 3D
Barcelona Cinesa Diagonal Mar 3D (sala 10) 10,10€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Barcelona Cinesa La Maquinista 3D (sala 12) 10,10€ 2K RealD
Barcelona Cinesa La Maquinista 3D (sala 13) 10,10€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Barcelona Cinesa Herón City 3D BCN (sala 15) 11,20€ 2K RealD
Barcelona Aribau Club (sala 1) 9,00€ 2K Dolby 3D
Barcelona Gran Sarrià (sala 5)*208 10,00€ 2K Dolby 3D
Barcelona Cinesa Diagonal 3D (sala 2) 10,80€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Barcelona Cinesa Diagonal 3D (sala 3) 10,80€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Castelldefels Filmax Castelldefels (sala 5) 10,00€ 2K: Christie DOREMI XpanD
Cerdanyola del Vallés El Punt del Vallès (sala 3) 9,00€ 2K XpanD
Cornellá Multicines Llobregat (sala 9) 8,80€ 2K RealD??
Gavá Cinesa Barnasud 3D (sala 7) 9,00€ 2K RealD??
Granollers Ocine Granollers - El Nord (sala 3) 9,50€ 2K XpanD
L'Hospitalet Filmax Granvía (sala 1) 10,00€ 2K: Christie DOREMI XpanD
Mataró Cinesa Mataró 3D (sala 9) 10,10€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Sabadell Cines Imperial (sala 3) 8,70€ 2K NEC NC1600C Doremi XpanD
Sabadell Cines Imperial (sala 4) 8,70€ 2K NEC NC1600C Doremi XpanD
Sabadell Eix Macià (sala 4) 8,70€ 2K NEC NC1600C Doremi XpanD
Terrassa Cinesa Parc Vallès 3D (sala 21) 9,40€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Barcelona Vic Sucre (sala 3) 7,40€ 2K Cinemeccanica XpanD
Barakaldo Yelmo Cineplex Megapark 8,10€ IMAX MPX IMAX 3D
Durango Cine Zugaza 6,00€ 2K Dolby 3D
Leioa Cinesa Artea 3D (sala 3) 9,60€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Portugalete Cines Ballonti (sala 2) 7,80€ 2K XpanD 6D butacas móviles, efectos sala, olor
Jerez de la Frontera Yelmo Cines Area Sur (sala 11) 9,30€ 2K Christie CP2000 DOREMI XpanD
Santander Cinesa Bahía de Santander 3D (sala 9) 9,60€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Ciudad Real Multicines Las Vías (sala 12) 5,50€ 2K ??
Córdoba Cinesur El Tablero (sala 10) 7,50€ 2K: NEC NC1600C DOREMI XpanD
Girona Ocine Girona (sala 11) 8,80€ 2K XpanD
Granada Kinépolis Granada (sala 9) 7,20€ 2K Dolby 3D
Granada Kinépolis Granada (sala 10) 7,20€ 2K Dolby 3D
Granada Kinépolis Granada (sala 15) 7,20€ 2K Dolby 3D
Granada Cinema Andalucía 2000 (sala 4) 7,50€ 2K Dolby 3D
Lepe Cineápolis Lepe (sala 4) 5,60€ 2K Dolby 3D
Inca (Mallorca) Cinesa Festival Park 3D (sala 12) 9,00€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Jaén Linares Cines Bowling (sala 3) 6,50€ 2K Dolby 3D
Las Palmas de Gran Canaria Cinesa Siete Palmas 3D (sala 4) 9,90€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Las Palmas Las Palmas de Gran Canaria Cinesa El Muelle 3D ??€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Lleida Alpicat JCA Cinemes Aplicat (sala 14) 6,50€ 2K ??
Alcorcón Yelmo Cines Tresaguas (sala 11) 9,00€ 2K Christie CP2000 DOREMI XpanD
Carabanchel Yelmo Cines Islazul (sala 4) 8,80€ 2K Christie CP2000 DOREMI XpanD
Collado Villalba Yelmo Cines Planetocio (sala 3) 10,40€ 2K Christie CP2000 DOREMI XpanD
La Moraleja Cinesa La Moraleja 3D (sala 5) 10,50€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Las Rozas Cinesa Las Rozas 3D (sala 23) 10,50€ 2K RealD
Las Rozas Cinesa Las Rozas 3D (sala 14) 10,50€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Leganés Cinesa Parquesur 3D (sala 9) 10,40€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Madrid Cinesa Proyecciones 3D (sala 3) 10,50€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Madrid Cinesa Príncipe Pío 3D (sala 9) 10,50€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Madrid Cinesa Loranca 3D (sala 10) 10,40€ 2K RealD
Madrid Cinesa Xanadú 3D (sala 3) 10,40€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Madrid Cinesa Las Rosas 3D (sala 2) 10,30€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Madrid IMAX Madrid 11,10€ 70mm/15perf IMAX 3D
Madrid Yelmo Cines Plenilunio (sala 4) 10,40€ 2K Christie CP2000 DOREMI XpanD
Majadahonda Cinesa Equinoccio 3D (sala 6) 10,50€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Pozuelo Kinépolis (sala 1) 8,85€ 2K Dolby 3D
Pozuelo Kinépolis (sala 12) 8,85€ 2K Dolby 3D
Pozuelo Kinépolis (sala 13) 8,85€ 2K Dolby 3D
Pozuelo Kinépolis (sala 24) 8,85€ 2K Dolby 3D
Rivas-vaciamadrid Yelmo Cines Rivas Futura (sala 13) 10,40€ 2K Christie CP2000 DOREMI XpanD
Vallecas Cinesa Vallecas 3D ??€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Málaga Yelmo Cines Plaza Mayor 9,60€ IMAX MPX IMAX 3D
Málaga Yelmo Cines Plaza Mayor (sala 9) 9,60€ 2K Cinemeccanica DOREMI XpanD
Málaga Yelmo Cines Vialia (sala 9) 7,90€ 2K Cinemaccanica DOREMI XpanD
Marbella Cinesa La Cañada 3D (sala 3) 9,70€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Cartagena Neocine Espacio Mediterráneo (sala 1) 7,50€ 2K XpanD
Lorca ACEC Almenara (sala 8) 8,30€ 2K ??
Murcia Neocine Thader (sala 12) 8,30€ 2K XpanD 6D butacas móviles, efectos sala, olor
Murcia Cinesa Nueva Condomina 3D (sala 8) 8,80€ 2K RealD
Sevilla Cinesur Nervión Plaza (sala 3) 9,00€ 2K Barco DP90 DOREMI XpanD
Tarragona Ocine Les Gavarres (sala 14) 8,80€ 2K XpanD
Alcira El punt de la ribera (sala 8) 8,20€ 2K Nuvision
Aldaia Cinesa Bonaire 3D (sala 8) 10,10€ 2K NEC Qube RealD
Gandía ABC Gandía (sala 8) 8,60€ 2K ??
Paterna Kinépolis (sala 13) 7,80€ 2K Dolby 3D
Paterna Kinépolis (sala 14) 7,80€ 2K Dolby 3D
Paterna Kinépolis (sala 15) 7,80€ 2K Dolby 3D
Sagunto Alucine Sagunto (sala 5) 6,00€ 2K ??
Valencia Ocine Valencia - Aqua (sala 4) 9,00€ 2K XpanD
Valencia ABC El Saler (sala 7) 8,90€ 2K ??
Zamora Multicines Zamora (sala 3) 6,50€ 2K Christie CP-2000ZX RealD
Zamora Multicines Zamora (sala 4) 6,50€ 2K Christie CP-2000ZX RealD
Zamora Valderaduey (sala 1) 5,50€ 2K Christie CP-2000SB DOREMI XpanD
Zamora Valderaduey (sala 2) 5,50€ 2K Christie CP-2000SB DOREMI XpanD
Zamora Valderaduey (sala 3) 5,50€ 2K Christie CP-2000SB DOREMI XpanD
Zamora Valderaduey (sala 4) 5,50€ 2K Christie CP-2000SB DOREMI XpanD
Zaragoza Cinesa Augusta 3D (sala 4) 9,10€ 2K RealD
Zaragoza Cinesa Grancasa 3D (sala 4) 9,10€ 2K RealD
Zaragoza Cinesa Grancasa 3D (sala 6) 9,10€ 2K RealD
Zaragoza Yelmo Cines Plaza Imperial (sala 8) 9,10€ 2K Christie CP2000 DOREMI XpanD
Zaragoza Palafox Las Salas (sala 3) 9,00€ 2K XpanD
Zaragoza Zaragoza Palafox Aragonia ??€ 2K XpanD
As you can see, NEC and Christie are more popular around here than Barcos. Doremi and Qube the preferred servers by installer. And RealD and XpanD the preferred 3D options. Prices for 3D shows range from around 6€ to around 9€ on the average.
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James B Gardiner
Film Handler
Posts: 91
From: North Altona, Victoria, Ausrtalia
Registered: Feb 2009
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posted 05-25-2009 07:58 AM
No according to Data I have seen from 2 different sources.
% on screen goes like this.
From memory:
RealD XL 27% (From RealD, but sounds a little on the high side to me..)
Xpand 17%
RealD Z-screen 14%
MasterImage 12%
Dolby is some place down here. I even heard 8-9%
My technical investigation on Masterimage also indicates it has a very bad DARK time due to the number of segments. (More is bad. Why the Dolby spinning wheel is 2 seg, Master Image is 8 or 16 I forget which.) More segments = more dark time = less light on screen. So, I tend to believe these specs.
Less segments means spin faster. 2 seq spins so fast it NEEDS to be in the projector for safety reasons.
MasterImage also have the worst placement for maximum ON time because the segment passes across the screen NOT from top to bottom but side to side. (Top to bottom taking less time as its less distance. Ie like Dolby colour wheel.)
So. I don;t know where you get your data from but i strongly disagree.
The only real info I do not have clear data on is the difference in performance of polarizing filters based on static ones and LCD. But I don;t expect them to be too different.
In terms of Dolby, a few cinema here did purchase this system. It costs a ridiculous amount (Due to having to get the biggest/most expensive projector you can purchase) and the glasses keep walking out the door. They regret it..
In a large seating cinema it is too hard to control the glasses. 500 or more people leaving in 5 mins. no way in hell you can keep them from walking out with them if they really wanted to. It kills you. Smaller cinemas this is much easier to control so having reusable expensive glasses is not so bad. (But still an issue)
These issues will float to the top and Dolby 3D will be on the back foot. You can tell this already by the fact they announced duel projectors as a qualified solution after XL started to take hold.
Dolby may look very good, but it just has too many negatives, and at the end of the day, all the 3D systems work well enough to fill your cinemas. So why adopt these issues?
Worst light on screen, expensive, cannot be moved, reusable glasses that commonly walk out the door. etc. Cost per cycle is not the issue. Not when they disappear before they make the cost back.
I simply cannot recommend this to a exhibitor.
Also the screen issue. Please, you have to purchase a new screen for any 3D system (Apart from Xpand usually) so what does it matter. Silver screen or hi-gain screen. Its a non issue.
In terms of Xpand. By no means is Xpand perfect, but its easy to install (15min) and works on many general DCI screens without the need for new screen etc. So you can get an Xpand system and your 3D. You can mov it from screen to screen as the show needs to. It has a lot of versatility and makes you a 3D multiplex in a snap. This is why it is selling well, probably many more screen over all, but probably less seats then dolby.
I would like to point out, I put business model before technical quality here. If your not a profitable cinema, soon you will be showing nothing.
James
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Julio Roberto
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 938
From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2008
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posted 05-25-2009 09:02 AM
James,
The master image system doesn't need a whole revolution per frame. It's not like in a color wheel where all segments may be needed for a complete image and thus the number of segments may indeed indicate longer blanking intervals per frame.
Master Image claims to do the whole 144 flashes rotating its filter. They say at an efective rate of 4230 rpm, but with the wheel being multisegment, this can't be correct.
Thus they switch at exactly the same rate as RealD or Dolby. 144 times a second the filter needs to go from "right circular" (72 times) to "left circular" (72 times). They both need 144 blanking intervals during the transsition periods.
The blanking interval may indeed be slightly longer (but no more frequent, like I think you were implying) than the switch time on RealD's z-screen, but not by much (i.e. I suspect it will be around 7% on RealD and about 10% on MI).
Having multiple segments on the MI wheel may simply help them obtain the same frequency with a lower RPM in their motors, thus improving the noise/safety/wear/other concerns. One revolution on Dolby (2 filters) may only need 1/8 revolution on Master Images (i.e. 16 filters). But they both make 2 blanking intervals during that time period (2 segments on a whole turn with Dolby, also 2 segments with a slower 1/8 turn of Master Image).
Coupled with their improved transmitance filters over the z-screen, I would guess from available data they are not that different in transmission (brightness). It would have to be measured to figure out wich one has the (probably) slight edge.
But like all polarization systems, they are angle-dependant (even circular) and thus start to suffer serious ghosting problems on the edge of the screens that worsen the larger the screen is, specially for those sitting on the sides. Dolby doesn't have that problem, nor does XpanD. But all polarizing systems (Imax/Dual/RealD/Master Image/Sony) do have it. Only really a concern for seriously wide screens on wide auditoriums.
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Julio Roberto
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 938
From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2008
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posted 05-25-2009 09:38 AM
While I generally agree with you, Mark, there are markets and situations where the cost of Dolby's glasses offsets the advantages.
Like James mentioned, even if you use security scanners for stolen Dolby glasses, if you have a 600 seats auditorium exiting in 7 minutes flat through 3 doors, it wouldn't be practical to control the theft of glasses.
A different thing would be if Dolby glasses were (say) $10 each. Then the loss of a few may be easily offset by the savings of reusing them, and equipping a theater with a few thousand glasses, scanners for all exit doors, cleaning equipment and personnel wouldn't be such a cost issue.
But at $27/pair over $8 tickets, there are a lot of markets that won't touch them. Same goes for XpanD, though people are a bit less inclined to steal XpanD's for a number of reasons.
Like James says, for a smaller screen they may make more sense, as fewer of them are needed in stock, probably only 1 door needs to be controlled, the rate of loss would probably be small, and for a small number of seats the cleaning/handling operation may be very practical indeed, making Dolby (or even XpanD) the potential long-term cost champion.
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