Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » KDM delivery via modem.... (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: KDM delivery via modem....
Mike Renlund
Film Handler

Posts: 71
From: San Francisco
Registered: Feb 2008


 - posted 12-03-2008 01:38 PM      Profile for Mike Renlund   Email Mike Renlund   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am getting word again that Fox and Sony want all digital cinema houses to have a POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service)line installed, and a modem, so that the KDMs will be "securely" delivered. Why we are jumping back to technology that went out of style a decade ago is beyond me. I really wish there was no mention of a modem in the DCI spec. Anyone got any ideas as to how we can stop this mess from going forward?

 |  IP: Logged

Tristan Lane
Master Film Handler

Posts: 444
From: Nampa, Idaho
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 12-03-2008 01:55 PM      Profile for Tristan Lane   Email Tristan Lane   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not sure if the requirement for a landline is for the primary method of key delivery, or for a backup. Their use of the word securely probably means that they would prefer not to deliver keys via e-mail anymore.

All AccessIT (Cinedigm) sites need to have a landline, and many keys are "modem dropped" rather than traveling over the internets.

 |  IP: Logged

James Westbrook
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1133
From: Lubbock, Texas, Usa
Registered: Mar 2006


 - posted 12-03-2008 04:45 PM      Profile for James Westbrook   Email James Westbrook   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Is this a preferred method over shipping flash drives?

 |  IP: Logged

Dustin Mitchell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1865
From: Mondovi, WI, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 12-04-2008 03:46 AM      Profile for Dustin Mitchell   Email Dustin Mitchell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We never get flash drives anymore, its all over modem, so apprantly yes.

Very reliable, don't see what the big deal is.

 |  IP: Logged

Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 12-04-2008 06:59 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Almost all of the ones I've seen have been on the hard disc along with the 'print'. Since the key is tied down to a specific player, and to a specific range of dates, I can't see what this great 'security' issue is.

The UKFC /Arts Alliance setup includes a ADSL router for connection to the Internet, one intended use for which was for key delivery, but I haven't seen it used for this. I haven't been projecting for several months now, so this may have changed. There's certainly no modem or POTS line involved.

 |  IP: Logged

Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-04-2008 08:10 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In the US, at least, POTS circuits are tariffed differently from DSL or other types of circuits. If a POTS line fails, the ILEC (telephone company) is obligated to fix it within a very short amount of time, as the service is considered to be critical, whereas DSL lines can be down for weeks, with no recourse for the customer.

As silly as the requirement may seem, POTS service tends to Just Work (tm) and is not generally dependent upon additional customer-premises equipment being properly configured. It is also generally inexpensive (though maybe not for a large multi-screen facility) and can be obtained at virtually any location. The same cannot be said of DSL or T1 or most other types of connectivity, which tend to be expensive and may be unavailable in rural areas.

 |  IP: Logged

David Zylstra
Master Film Handler

Posts: 432
From: Novi, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted 12-04-2008 08:59 AM      Profile for David Zylstra   Email David Zylstra   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Mike Renlund
Anyone got any ideas as to how we can stop this mess from going forward?
Refuse to play Fox and Sony until they lose enough money to not care about POTS lines, but this will only work if the big boys refuse too (AMC, Regal, Cinemark, etc). I know currently National Amusements does not book Fox on their digital screens because of the phone line requirement.

 |  IP: Logged

Jim Cassedy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1661
From: San Francisco, CA
Registered: Dec 2006


 - posted 12-04-2008 10:05 AM      Profile for Jim Cassedy   Email Jim Cassedy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Having worked as an engineer for over 10 years at "the phone company" (Pacific Bell/SBC/ATT), I'd like to 2nd the comments made by Scott Norwood a couple of posts previous to this one.

Beleive it or not, there are still pockets of the county where broadband, either via dsl or cable-modem are unavailable.

Even at the TELCO we had many, many VERY sophisticated systems that still relied on POTS dial-up modems as their primary means of interconnectivity.

POTS is easier and cheaper to install, maintain and configure and is universally available. And as Scott pointed out, in the event of an outage, service restoral times are much quicker, due in part to legal quirks in the FCC regulatory structure which require it to be so.

I don't think it would be necessary to have a POTS line for every screen at a digital multiplex. There are routers which can be hung off the data end of a dial-up modem that can be used to route the KDM or other stuff to the proper digital server via a local IP network installed at the theater.

I'm not suggesting dial-up would be practical for content delivery, but modern modems and data compression alogrithims give it more than enough bandwidth and speed for KDM delivery and remote system management.

POTS & dial-up are far from dead!
...and remember: If it wasn't for Alexander Graham Bell,
we'd all be walking around carrying cellular telegraphs! [Big Grin]

 |  IP: Logged

Pete Naples
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1565
From: Dunfermline, Scotland
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 12-04-2008 10:59 AM      Profile for Pete Naples   Email Pete Naples   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stephen,

The installation of a dial up modem was offered to AA sites earlier this year, or was it last year? I can't remember exactly. I think it was an optional extra rather than a requirement.

All the AA sites I've seen here in the UK have one ADSL equipped line per screen. The cost to the exhibitor must be quite considerable, you've got the copper wire rental from BT, plus business ADSL rates, then multiply that by the number of screens [Eek!]

One other hting to note, currently it is not possible to drop a KDM onto a Dolby server via the serial port (ie dial up), there is supposed to be an agreement between Fox/Sony & Dolby that they will deliver KDMs to Dolby equipped sites by other means. However I know of at least one exhibitor who was given a scratched 35mm copy of Quantum of Solace, because the distributor refused to deliver the KDM by email.

As far as I can see the dedicated line is an un-necessary expense, as most cinemas will have broadband of some sort in the building. Admittedly it may or may not be easy to navigate through firewalls etc to establish a VPN to the system. But her in good old value for money Britain, the cost of the bare wires would be at least £15/month rental plus £100 connection fee. Then you've got business broadband on top, so you're looking at a total in the region of £100/month per screen for something you probably already have in the building.

 |  IP: Logged

Mark J. Marshall
Film God

Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 12-04-2008 11:24 AM      Profile for Mark J. Marshall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Regardless of how secure and reliable a phone line is, it's still a step backwards technologically speaking. But then again, so is digital cinema in some respects.

Here's an idea.

Setup a secure web site where the theaters can login and generate their own keys. How hard can that be? Software distributors do that all the time.

 |  IP: Logged

Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 12-04-2008 11:28 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Pete,

Yes, I agree. I seem to remember reading in the pack which came from AA before the installation something to the effect that they wanted a dedicated connection to the Internet to avoid complications with other equipment which was not part of the system, and to esure that the required bandwidth would be available, which of course ADSL doesn't do. Since the amount of data to be moved around is tiny for key delivery, and quite small even for remote management/diagnostics, I really can't see why an existing connection shouldn't be used. I've never seen a digital installation with more than one screen, but to have a separate ADSL connection for each screen seems absolutely ridiculous; a bit of Cat. 5 cable, or possibly fibre if it's a large building, to each projection position is all that's needed. Even if there's no network available you could have the keys delivered to an Internet-connected computer in the manager's office, and send them out from there on USB sticks.

Maybe they thought that projectioists were simple folk who wouldn't understand things like data networks, so they would keep it simple by having each screen installation completely self-contained, with its own connection, but these days networks are common even at home, and I can't believe there are many cinemas that don't have them.

The ADSL connection is too slow to be used for most content delivery, it would be ok for trailers etc., so I can't see the point in each screen having its own.

While I was staying in Bradford a few weeks ago I made it as far as Scotland one day, Settle - Carlisle line from Shipley, and changed at Carlisle for Glasgow.

 |  IP: Logged

Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-04-2008 12:06 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The idea of having a separate DSL circuit for each screen is just stupid. It doesn't really provide any degree of redundancy or extra bandwidth vs. having a single DSL circuit for the building, assuming that all circuits would be through the same provider and terminated at the same CO.

How big are the keys? I've never seen one, but have always just assumed that they were maybe 1-2k text files. Is this a reasonable assumption?

 |  IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 12-04-2008 03:28 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm still awaiting an answer from one of the server manufacturers as to one Potts line per booth or one line per server... No one seems to know...

Mark

 |  IP: Logged

David Zylstra
Master Film Handler

Posts: 432
From: Novi, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted 12-04-2008 03:30 PM      Profile for David Zylstra   Email David Zylstra   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
KDMs are relatively small - a recent emailed zip file with 18 KDMs was 201KB, each individual KDM was 11KB.

quote: Mark J. Marshall
Setup a secure web site where the theaters can login and generate their own keys. How hard can that be? Software distributors do that all the time.
This has been talked about, but since the studios are trying to be in control here they won't let it happen.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
one Potts line per booth or one line per server
With the Cinedigm solution the studios are OK with 1 POTS line per theatre. I forget which section of DCI talks about POTS lines but I think it is open to interpretation.

 |  IP: Logged

Todd McCracken
Master Film Handler

Posts: 263
From: Northridge, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2008


 - posted 12-04-2008 05:34 PM      Profile for Todd McCracken     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To my knowledge all US based POTS delivery systems that we use for KDM delivery are 1 line per location. With the Cinedigm LMS/networked solution this provides KDM access to all screens on site.
I find it interesting that the UK approach is a DSL line per screen
[Eek!]

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.