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» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » My First Time (watching a DLP presentation) (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: My First Time (watching a DLP presentation)
Mitchell Cope
Master Film Handler

Posts: 256
From: Overland Park, KS, United States
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-23-2002 06:44 AM      Profile for Mitchell Cope   Email Mitchell Cope   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Last week I saw my first DLP presentation. I normally avoid these types of things because I'm a big fan of 35/70mm film. This time, my wife wanted to catch an earlier show of "Showtime", so there I was.

I'm not going to talk about artifacts or resolution. I actually thought the picture was good with the following noted exceptions. I noticed that DLP may not have been able to produce some low light areas. That was a slight bother. The thing that really got me is that the closeups on people made their faces seem wider than normal. I thought De Niro's closeups made him look like Jake La Motta out of "Raging Bull". What's the deal with this? How could this be? Everything else looked pretty normal, but closeups went down the tube. Hollywood is not going to like this.

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John Anastasio
Master Film Handler

Posts: 325
From: Trenton, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 03-23-2002 07:47 AM      Profile for John Anastasio   Author's Homepage   Email John Anastasio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sounds like a problem with the DP, not the DLP. I don't see how the mode of projection would have any effect on a closeup. As far as the contrast ratio is concerned, there's no doubt that DLP cannot yet match that of film. See the latest issue of the SMPTE Journal for a great article on a subjective comparison done between film and digital projection. They ran several films fipping between reels (reel 1 - 35mm, reel 2 - DLP, etc ...not telling the audience which was which) The only area in which some viewers like DLP better was in perceived brightness on the screen. Contrast on the DLP was a dismal loser as well as sharpness. Highlights burned out and shadow detail disappeared. It ain't there yet, folks.

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Mitchell Cope
Master Film Handler

Posts: 256
From: Overland Park, KS, United States
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-23-2002 08:10 AM      Profile for Mitchell Cope   Email Mitchell Cope   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The "face fatness" was noted in the trailers as well. Though I couldn't note this problem in regular shots, could the projectionist have unsqueezed the image too much? Again, I think I would have detected that in all shots.

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Ken Layton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1452
From: Olympia, Wash. USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 03-23-2002 10:52 AM      Profile for Ken Layton   Email Ken Layton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Since it is a video format the video projector must have the same controls as tv sets and monitors: "Horiz Size" (width) and "Vert Size" (height).

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Paul Linfesty
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From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 03-23-2002 11:43 AM      Profile for Paul Linfesty   Email Paul Linfesty   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This may be the same problem I observed during a DLP showing of Mission To Mars. The image was definitely streteched out more than it should have been.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

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From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 03-23-2002 11:51 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ken suggested:
>Since it is a video format the video projector must have the same
>controls as tv sets and monitors: "Horiz Size" (width) and "Vert
>Size" (height).

Perhaps but not necessarily. Remember, this is not like a CRT where one can adjust size simply by varying the scan voltage & current.

After decompression the DLP data consists of intensity values specific for each pixel on the red, blue, and green DMD chips. (As the micro-mirrors themselves are 1-bit on/off units, gray scale is achieved by varying the duty cycle.) If there is an ability to resize it would have to be accomplished by a local processor re-rezzing the image like you would in Photoshop. That would probably cause loss of resolution and would certainly be wasting pixels which are already in short supply. So it seems unlikely although someone else will have to give the definitive answer.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 03-24-2002 01:54 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would think that it would be much easier to notice the shots being too wide non-telephoto shots. People in the distance would look very awkward. Closeups would be harder to notice such an effect on.

Odd.

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Richard Topping
Film Handler

Posts: 13
From: Newcastle-upon-Tyne, UK
Registered: May 2001


 - posted 03-24-2002 07:41 AM      Profile for Richard Topping   Author's Homepage   Email Richard Topping   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think that the presentation you must have seen must have been set up poorly from the installation. I have just been setting up a cinema in Hungary and a DLP was installed in their. Kinoton Console and Barco Head.

The first film playing was Monsters Inc. (in english though!) and the picture was almost perfect, everything looked very good and was only when you got close up could you notice the pixels. It is still not up to standard of 35/70mm but it is getting closer!

I was speaking to the rep. from technicolour who set up the film, and some interesting facts (if you did'nt know them already) There are 3 DLP chips in the head, each chip contains 1.2 million mirrors, and like said before they are in state 0 or state 1 (open or closed) differant light scales are acheieved by turning from state 0 to 1 and back again quickly. The mirrors are moved by electic pulses sent by the QBit (the bit that runs the film).

Hence 3.6 million mirrors = 3.6 million pixels. For every 1000 chips made only 1 have every single mirror working and therefore can be used in a DLP cinema projector. The other 999 have at least one pixel missing.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
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 - posted 03-24-2002 08:27 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One reason closeups may look more jagged as curved lines of facial contours will tend to epand across more of the screen so there apparent resolution should increase.
Just think how bad Bardot would look with jaggy curves

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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 03-24-2002 08:59 AM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just a thought- I wonder if the micromirrors have the same aspect ratio as the devices recording the image. This could have the effect of "fattening" things. I could understand the MMs needing to be something other than square. There has to be a tiny gap for the mirror to vibrate without affecting its neighbors. That gap might be larger on the axis that has the direction of rotation.

If this is the case, it could be a difficult problem to fix electronicly. Leaving out every Xth vertical grid line of pixels would create jaggies and uneven movement. A slightly anamorphic lens would be the proper solution. -Again, this is just speculation, I don't know the tech specs. of the MM chips or CCDs or whatever is being used.

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Richard Fowler
Film God

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From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 03-24-2002 09:06 AM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The DLP cinema chip ( at the moment ) is basically 1.33 / 1 and requires anamorphic adapters for both common formats.....the mirrors vibrate at one axis.
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

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John Pytlak
Film God

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From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
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 - posted 03-24-2002 06:35 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually, the "native" aspect ratio of the 1280x1024 pixel DLP-Cinema projectors is only 1.25:1. They use a 1.5X anamorphic lens for 1.85:1, and a 1.9X anamorphic for 2.39:1.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

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From: Mount Vernon WA USA
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 - posted 03-25-2002 07:16 PM      Profile for Paul G. Thompson   Email Paul G. Thompson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The first DLP persentation I saw was at ShoWest, the screening of "Windtalkers". The sound was awesome, but I was not impressed with the picture. Something seemed to be missing. I think I would rather see that movie on 35mm.

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Aaron Haney
Master Film Handler

Posts: 265
From: Cupertino, CA, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 03-25-2002 07:26 PM      Profile for Aaron Haney   Email Aaron Haney   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Hence 3.6 million mirrors = 3.6 million pixels.
Actually, it takes three mirrors to make one pixel (R-G-B), so that's still only 1.2 million pixels. And the color components are aligned so that they are displayed directly on top of each other, so there isn't even any chance for sub-pixel information.


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-26-2002 08:37 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul said: "The first DLP persentation I saw was at ShoWest, the screening of "Windtalkers". The sound was awesome, but I was not impressed with the picture. Something seemed to be missing. I think I would rather see that movie on 35mm."

I saw the "Windtalkers" digital cinema presentation as well. I was very disappointed in the handling of the highlights --- very light areas of the scene (sunlit rocks, the highlights on Nicholas Cage's nose) tended to "clip" in a video-like fashion. The black areas were not truly black --- e.g., the night scene where the drunken Cage is in the graveyard had a "foggy" appearance. Sitting in the front row of the crowded Les Theatre des Arts, I could also see the pixel structure in light areas, and "jaggies" in the titles.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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