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» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Anybody attending the Sony 4K Demo? (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Anybody attending the Sony 4K Demo?
Lyle Romer
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1331
From: Davie, FL, USA
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 01-03-2005 10:47 AM      Profile for Lyle Romer   Email Lyle Romer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It would be nice to get some honest feedback on the Sony 4K Digital Cinema Demo instead of the obligitory press orgasm about how it is better than any image possibly could ever be.

Hopefully somebody from FT will be going.

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John Pytlak
Film God

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From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
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 - posted 01-03-2005 11:09 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The ITEA Projection Seminar is being held at the Sheraton Universal Hotel January 10-12. So it's likely some attendees will stay on for the January 13 demos at the Entertainment Technology Center (ETC) on Hollywood Boulevard:

http://www.itea.com/seminars_courses.html#itea12seminar

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Richard Fowler
Film God

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From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
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 - posted 01-03-2005 12:55 PM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So what do you want to know?...saw demos in Atlanta at Infocomm and again at ShowEast. I left some observations on the unit on previous posts [Big Grin]

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Lyle Romer
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Davie, FL, USA
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 - posted 01-03-2005 01:43 PM      Profile for Lyle Romer   Email Lyle Romer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Richard,

I'm interested in how it looks compared to 35mm 'scope' (largest negative and projectable area) film done right. Not just in resolution but also contrast, brightness and color reproduction.

Thanks!

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Richard Fowler
Film God

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From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 01-03-2005 02:32 PM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Infocomm demo utilized Windows HD motion playback and 1/2 screen resolution of 2K and 4K resolution still images. The screen was around 30 + feet and viewing the image at about 8 feet, the 4K was basically pixel free. On static charts the 2 versus 4 k was obvious but with motion clips much less so; by the time you moved back to about 1/2 screen width, to an average moviegoer, the 2K would look better or equal to an average 35mm print. Color space is very good and very film like.
Showeast displayed an image on about a 12 - 14 foot screen (in an exhibit room) with people about 1/2 screen width away. They display was uncompressed HD and 2/4K material via a group of servers using cinema trailers and some custom shot 65mm material. The resolution especially in the 65mm material was excellent at 4K...the film trailer less so, again I think 2K would be fine. This demo allowed me to see contrast issues more easily. LCOS based machines, though very film like and comparable to a typical film print,have not reached the contrast that something as an Eastman vision print film is capable of displaying. LCOS type issues such as fading to black and contrast when compared to DLP needs more work. I have also seen 2K DLP on a Barco DP100 at a Kinopolis multiplex in Belgium last year on a 20 meter screen and it blew away the 35mm presentation ( on a Christie film projector ) in sharpness, steadyness and almost on contrast.....DLP still appears to have an edge on contrast; depends if the the material exploits this with variables such as cinematography preferences and post production tweaking. Brightness is not an issue with either the T.I. or Sony (or even JVC) ; evenness of light field is much more even than the 60 - 70% we are used to in an average cinema. Improved optical improvements and upgrades should make competition interesting [Cool]

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

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From: Lawton, OK, USA
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 - posted 01-03-2005 03:44 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Aside from contrast issues, there have been other problems such as shimmering that seem to occur with LCOS-based imagers.

I'm hoping that Sony's 4K rig is viable and will push the digital projection industry to a better standard than 2K. But problems with LCOS have to be conquered. Other companies once big on developing LCOS chipsets have dropped out, most notably Intel. They've all had problems trying to get the technology to work.

4K really has to be the serious target, even if 2K seems good enough under some circumstances. There is little need for a home theater system to show 4K material. So commercial cinemas can at least have some exclusivity on showing the "higher visual standard" when it comes to digital projection. 2K is going to be hampered by too many negative marketing problems from people being able to draw comparisons with home theater technology. You can't have lots of people saying, "my home setup is as good as that."

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Steve Kraus
Film God

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From: Chicago, IL, USA
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 - posted 01-04-2005 07:11 AM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Is Sony's technology pretty much the same or similar to JVC's D/ILA?

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Mattias Ohlson
Expert Film Handler

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From: Falun, Sweden
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 - posted 01-04-2005 08:30 AM      Profile for Mattias Ohlson   Email Mattias Ohlson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I say it again. Convince Sony to ditch xenon bulbs in favor of lasers as the light source and you will see a noticable increase in contrast.

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Richard Fowler
Film God

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From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
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 - posted 01-04-2005 09:17 AM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mattias,
which laser demostrations have you seen?

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

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From: Albuquerque, NM
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 - posted 01-04-2005 01:01 PM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, Sony's SXRD is their name for D-ILA or LCOS. Supposedly Sony has developed an improved (i.e. cheaper) manufacturing process for their imager.

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Richard Fowler
Film God

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From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
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 - posted 01-04-2005 02:37 PM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A couple of years prior to the debut of this projector, Sony terminated their OEM supply of LCD panels to other manufacturers...probably to have maximum use of their in house manufacturing capability.

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Mattias Ohlson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 180
From: Falun, Sweden
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 - posted 01-05-2005 08:09 AM      Profile for Mattias Ohlson   Email Mattias Ohlson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mr Fowler
JVC has persued the use of lasers as the light source for their digital cinema effort since the beginning of this century or longer. If JVC ever enters this market is unclear.

I have not seen a demonstration.
I have googled up news of a laser sxrd demonstration by Sony in Brazil.
Reading and asking people in the business about lcos and contrast I have learned lasers have the potential to increase contrast in projection.

If sxrd/d-ila can achieve 1500:1 with xenon I guestimate with laser 3000:1 is possible. On top of this I guess that you can adjust the brightness on the fly as is required. This latter thing is already happening in home theater.

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Mark J. Marshall
Film God

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From: New Castle, DE, USA
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 - posted 01-05-2005 08:40 AM      Profile for Mark J. Marshall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That still sucks. Even if they were able to push it to 5000:1, that's still only about half of what regular film stock can do.

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Stephen Furley
Film God

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From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
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 - posted 01-05-2005 08:45 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Mattias Ohlson
I say it again. Convince Sony to ditch xenon bulbs in favor of lasers as the light source and you will see a noticable increase in contrast.

How are you proposing to use the lasers?

There was a laser projection system at one of the expos, Expo 70 in Japan I think. As I understand it, the technology used was three lasers, each modulated by a video signal, by means of what I think is known as a pokel crystal, this changes the angle at which light is polarised in proportion to the Voltage applied across it. Passing this polarised light through a plane polariser thus modulates the intensity of the light. The three beams were then combined by a prism block, and scanned across the screen; the horizontal scanning being by either a rotating prism or mirror drum, and vertical scanning by an oscillating plane mirror. Were you thinking of an updated version of this, or something that operates quite differently.

The problems with the Expo 70 system were said to be that the image was not very bright, and suitable lasers available at that time had a rather short life. I don't know how far technology has moved on in 35 years, it's a long time.

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Richard Fowler
Film God

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From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 01-05-2005 09:46 AM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Lasers, if and when, would show great promise since some research papers note that a typical projection lens as we know it would not be necessary. The Laser scanning could, in concept, create any image size ( within brightness restriction of the laser ) at any throw + correct for keystone error......but as a product at your local Ahlens store, you have a very long wait [Wink]

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