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» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » When will we see 4k dlp from TI? (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: When will we see 4k dlp from TI?
Mattias Ohlson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 180
From: Falun, Sweden
Registered: Mar 2003


 - posted 10-30-2003 07:50 AM      Profile for Mattias Ohlson   Email Mattias Ohlson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would first like to state my position in the film or digital debate. My point of view is that movies should be shot on film at 48fps and shown digitally at 4k.

That is why I ask when TI will supply the industry with 4k chips. I understand the reluctance in the industry to replace projected film with something just north of hdtv. 4k would clearly separate the movie experience from hdtv at home considering that the cinemas could use superior sources and a much higher resolution.

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Erick Akers
Arse Kicker

Posts: 201
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: May 2001


 - posted 10-30-2003 08:43 AM      Profile for Erick Akers   Email Erick Akers   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Let me be the first to break it down for you in one easy five letter word.

Can you say "money"? I knew you could!

Let's just say for arguments sake that DLP had the potential to blow everything out of the water. How do you justify even trying to update a theater to DLP system when most people still have not adopted the HDTV systems in to their own homes yet?

I mean come on, do you truly believe that DLP is the only savior of the Movie Empire? The system is already flawed. Personally I find digital presentations have more distracting artifacts than film.

When the question was posed as to why 70mm became a thing of the past, we were fed this [bs] about the magnetic audio tracks harming our prescious environment, and that it was also the most expensive part of processing 70mm. Then along came DTS and now we hear that to have DTS on a 70mm print that it must make a second pass through a film printer.

The studios are now only looking for that opening revenue. they don't care about the customer or the theater owner, just the opening gross.

Polyester is so F**king cheap, it's unreal!

Film technology is proven,effective and just as viable now.

Perfect something before trying to cram it down our throats for once.

BTW: Welcome to Film-Tech [Big Grin]

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 10-30-2003 09:41 AM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Why shoot film at 48 fps. Where is the savings in that. Might as well shoot as you normaly do and make the prints for film release. If they ever do make a 4k chip it will definetly make the cost of the DLP go up. In the forseable future I do not see DLP as an economical choice for exhibitors. I see it more as a specialty venue type situation not as a replacement for equipment in a multiplex at this time.

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Mattias Ohlson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 180
From: Falun, Sweden
Registered: Mar 2003


 - posted 10-30-2003 09:42 AM      Profile for Mattias Ohlson   Email Mattias Ohlson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Erick
What would your response be to this.
Film need to up the temporal resolution , perhaps from 24 to 48 as I suggested above. The market can then choose one of these options.
1 Project film at 24fps 48Hz flicker rate, no investment
2 Project film at 48fps 48Hz flicker rate, some investment
3 Project digitally at 48fps at 2k or 4k, expensive but less expensive as the technology matures

I am sure film is without competetion if you view an expensive copy of the original negative using the most advanced process. However that is not for everyone. I am sure digital projection has some problems, but not serious ones at 4k as the technology matures.

I as a consumer is not so conserverd with savings. But if you shoot 35mm Maxivision48 style your film stock costs increases only by 50 percent. The exhibitor could order a 24fps print or a 48fps copy. You could also get the movie as a 48p 2k-4k digital copy.

I understand that the exhibitor can not take the costs for a transition it must be shared across the industy. I am willing to pay a little more for tickets if I get a better movie experience.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9442
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-30-2003 09:46 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If the exisiting chip technology is not cost effective in any current business model then a more expensive chip even less and the 4K chip I doubt would have many alternate uses to bring any costsavings to manufacturer

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 10-30-2003 09:46 AM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
the technology must mature to the point where the risk of obsoletion is at it's minamal point and the price must come way down for any exhibitor to even consider a mass deployment of this system into the field.

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Mattias Ohlson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 180
From: Falun, Sweden
Registered: Mar 2003


 - posted 10-30-2003 09:59 AM      Profile for Mattias Ohlson   Email Mattias Ohlson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Darryl
I think you point to something very important. The technology must come to a point where you do not risk losing your investment beacuse the technology changes so fast.

I believe that technology point is 4k. TI should be there soon and JVC already is. It would be in the interest of say TI to say that we are not going beyond 4k. TI is trying to say we are not going beyond 2k. The problem is that they are not credible there since consumers will start to demand 2k(hdtv) in their home. Of course the movie going public expects more at their local cinema than what they have at home.

At 2k there is no business model at 4k there can be a business model.

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 10-30-2003 10:10 AM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
But you have to look at my second point. The cost must come way down. Otherwise no one is going to take the hook.

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Bevan Wright
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 176
From: Fountain Valley, CA, USA
Registered: Sep 2003


 - posted 10-30-2003 10:33 AM      Profile for Bevan Wright   Author's Homepage   Email Bevan Wright   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Classic supply/demand problem. Largest demand is at 2k (HDTV) for the consumer, going to 4k just for 110,000 cinema screens world-wide probably doesn't make economic sense. Most of the post production gear doesn't exist for for 4k. And it is not just the cost of the display device, what about the quality of the lenses to have a MTF to resolve all of 4k, what about the interfaces, transmission bandwidth and storage for 4k files. It may be a while.

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Jason Burroughs
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 654
From: Allen, TX
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-30-2003 10:38 AM      Profile for Jason Burroughs   Email Jason Burroughs   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Problem with digial theater, is that its the technology of the presentation is changing and will continue to change signifigantly. Even if they limited their digital theater chips to 4k, surely the other market sectors would continute to demand higher resolutions. Then you end up with Joe Blow with a higher resolution in his home theater than the local megaplex can offer.

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Mattias Ohlson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 180
From: Falun, Sweden
Registered: Mar 2003


 - posted 10-30-2003 01:00 PM      Profile for Mattias Ohlson   Email Mattias Ohlson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If exhibitors believe 4k will stay for a long time they can start to invest. Consumer devices will not go beyond hdtv because of the cost premium to go further. Also the source will limit the quality, hd-dvd standard, hdtv standard and available spectrum for broadcasting.

Exhibitors will have access to superior sources. The pro market can take a higher cost premium than the consumer market. With volume the price will come down to an acceptable level for some exhibitors. There will still be the first second and third alternatives as I exemplified above.

If lenses start to become a resolution problem then I see little arguments against digital projection at 2k only. I still believe digital will have to be 4k.

I know that taxes are not popular, but they could prove to be the only solution. If the industry can not agree how to share costs. I suggest a fixed transition tax is added to each ticket. Each exhibitor gets this refunded if they invest in the new technology. This refund will probably not cover the entire investment so one can choose not to invest, but then you might lose business if other theaters do and if consumers prefer that quality. That quality could be
1 film projected at 48fps
2 digital 2k or 4k projection at 48fps

If people choose to go to watch film projected at 24fps the old way that is fine, the market decides. A change in the industry will probably create new companies and more jobs.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9442
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-30-2003 01:26 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
From the consumers point of view I doubt they would be willing to pay a premium for digital projection they wouldn't for 70mm
Also the cost is still way to high and even if there was a large scale conversion it will not represent a bigenough market to gain a cost saving
With the average 35mm setup running around 35,000 compared to the net average of 150,000 for DLP 4 screens could be equipped and earning money for the cost of one DLP screen
Also light level issues still need to be addressed

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12084
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-30-2003 05:39 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
First off, I don't agree that customers won't pay a premium for 70mm...they will and have.

As to light levels...With digital projection it seems to get better by the day.

I think the 2K machines will be a turning point for DCinema. It will be good enough for most cinemas. The machines are native 1.85:1 rather than the stupid 5:4 of the existing units...only SXGA data sources want a 5:4 picture! The 2K machines don't use any anamorphic attachment all of the way out to 1.85:1 and use a mild anamorphic 1.26 squeeze for "Scope" films.

I also noticed that the 2K machines just pushed down the price of the 1280x1024 models by 10s of thousands.

Steve

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Ian Price
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1714
From: Denver, CO
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-30-2003 07:14 PM      Profile for Ian Price   Email Ian Price   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mattias Ohlson listen to Bevan Wright. He just spent years working for Christie and just might have a handle on where Digital Cinema is right at the moment.

My next question is have you seen a 2K Digital Cinema presentation? I have and it looks damn good. Some aspects are better than film and some are not as good as film. But on average, I would be perfectly happy seeing 2K succede. At the moment my only problem with Digital Cinema is paying for it.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 10-30-2003 09:23 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You have to start somewhere, and 2K seems to be settling out as the true starting point. It's taken about four years of limited rollout (1280 x 1024 pixel system) for Digital Cinema to reach just over a hundred North American screens out of about 35,000 film screens. Japan, the UK, Brazil, China, and India have also been active in "testing the waters".

Kodak has been involved from the start (Spirit DataCines that use a Kodak-designed and built scanner are used for transferring most of the films that have been available for digital presentation), and hopes to make it even better:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/digital/system.shtml

http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/products/v2/sehlin.shtml

Kodak's expertise is likely to find application in many areas of digital cinema, including such things as optical design, color management, and anti-piracy technologies.

Like others, Kodak sees digital projection gaining a foothold on thousands of screens with pre-show content and special events like concerts, using more modest installations that can be upgraded:

http://www.kodak.com/go/dcinema

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