Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | my password | register | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » kw and Lumens (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: kw and Lumens
Philip Borgnes
Film Handler

Posts: 18
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted 05-23-2005 08:54 PM      Profile for Philip Borgnes   Author's Homepage   Email Philip Borgnes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ok here is a basic question that I can't figure out.
What is the relation of kw and lumens?
Is a 7kw = 7000 lumens?

Thanks!
Phil

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-23-2005 08:57 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It really depends on the efficiency of the lamphouse optics. Remember, efficiency of any light source is measured in lumens per watt. One lumen per watt is quite inefficient.

 |  IP: Logged

Philip Borgnes
Film Handler

Posts: 18
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted 05-23-2005 09:27 PM      Profile for Philip Borgnes   Author's Homepage   Email Philip Borgnes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks John,
So what would an efficient ratio of lumens per watt be?
10? 50? 100?

If a 7kw 35mm projector can illuminate a screen X by Y, what is the size digital projector (in lumens) needed for the same level of illumination?

 |  IP: Logged

Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3832
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 05-24-2005 01:10 AM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On a unity-gain screen lumens to foot Lamberts is a one-to-one function. For every fL you want reflected back from the screen you'll need to apply one ANSI lumen per square foot.

[(Screen Width x Screen Height) x Desired foot Lamberts] / Screen Gain = ANSI lumens

Examples:

20x37' unity-gain (1.0) screen (1.85AR)
12fL for max white level (assuming 16fL measured open gate, 12fL is about what you'd get projecting clear film)

[(20'x37')x12fL]/1 = 8880 ANSI lumens

20x48' unity-gain screen (~2.39AR) with 12fL white

[(20'x48')x12fL]/1 = 11,520 ANSI lumens

For anyone that knows, has DC28 come up with a standard for D-Cinema luminance yet? AFAIK 12fL is what many people have been using, though I hear that Sony is using 14fL for their 2K SXRD projector demos.

 |  IP: Logged

Philip Borgnes
Film Handler

Posts: 18
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted 05-24-2005 01:39 AM      Profile for Philip Borgnes   Author's Homepage   Email Philip Borgnes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well Paul that is the formula and logic I have been following too. Take for example the specs on the Christie CP2000H. It is a 2K 3-chip DLP and says that its brightness is
quote:
14fl (at screen) for up to 75ft/23m wide screens.
At 1.85 that would make the height 40ft and 75ft wide = 2960 square feet(bigger than my house). To hit 14fl that would be the equivalent of 40,000 lumens from a 6.0kW CDXL lamp.

One more thing. Is the 7kW in 35mm as efficient as a 7kW in DLP? or 6kW?

Using this logic then is a 7kW = to ~46,000 lumen? and a 4kW ~25,000? At bit more checking show that if a 7kW pumps out ~46,000, that would be 16fl coming off the screen. Isn't that spec. (SMPTE 196M)?

 |  IP: Logged

Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 05-24-2005 02:04 AM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For DLP projectors, you only need to reach 12fL because the projector does not have a revolving shutter.
You generally have to use considerably bigger lamp sizes in DLP projectors of the first generation. You would normally need a 6k lamp where normally a 4k would be sufficient for 35mm. What the relation is with the most recent generation of DLP projectors is I can not say as I have not worked with these so much yet.

 |  IP: Logged

Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3832
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 05-24-2005 02:12 AM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
12fL is what people have been using for video since that's about what a film projector will put out with clear film in the gate, assuming that machine puts out 16fL with no film in the gate (SMPTE 196M).

I'd be willing to bet that that Christie spec assumes a 2.39 AR instead of 1.85. Try running your numbers again using a 'scope image at 75' width and see what kind of lumen numbers you get.

As for determining watts needed once you know lumens, there's so many variables that affect that calculation. Lamphouse alignment and efficiency, filters, lenses, stop-down rings, yada yada. So it's tough to come up with a consistent lumens-to-lamp watts ratio. It'll be different for each equipment combination.

It seems that the early DLP machines did need a lot of light, e.g. 7K lamps when film in the same installation could get by with less. At least that's my impression from the few installs I've personally seen. With the latest machines I really don't know. I'm sure the guys with current install experience will comment in the morning. [Edit: Ah, I see Michael is up at this hour... [Smile] ]

As for me, it's past my bedtime. Gotta finish grading and get my grades turned in tomorrow. [Smile]

 |  IP: Logged

Philip Borgnes
Film Handler

Posts: 18
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted 05-24-2005 02:16 AM      Profile for Philip Borgnes   Author's Homepage   Email Philip Borgnes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Michael, but that doesn't make sense to me.

As I understand it, fl is what is coming off the screen. It doesn't matter what the source was before coming off the screen. 12fl seems a tad low to me. I try for 14-16fl.

Your other comment about the first generation DLPs (I'm not sure what first generation is though...) is less effecient than the film counterpart. So how much bigger lamp would you need to project a DLP 40x75?

Thanks John, it is late for me too but still have some more editing to do...

If you change the height to 32x75 for scope, then for 12fl you would need 30,000 lumens. So in this case ~5000 lumens per 1kw.

What I'm looking for is a general understanding on what the ratios and relationships are between the two units of measure. The projectors I'm using are in the 5000 lumen range with is fine for my small portable cinema, but didn't understand how that light output relates to these 2k projectors and 35mm.

My observation is that the DLPs are becoming more efficient which raises another question. How does DLP efficiency improve? Lens? Colorwheel? Mirrors?

 |  IP: Logged

Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 05-24-2005 03:30 AM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think Paul has an additional good point because light readings of film projectors are taken with no film in the projector.
Even though the measurement is integrated, the revolving shutter has to be taken into account because a film projector image flashes on and off while a DLP image is subjectively much more stable to the human eye.
As Paul also pointed out, there are so many variables that you really can not develop a general formula easily. It really depends on the effectivity of the lamphouse and projector design, and that alone can vary dramtically between different manufacturers and model options.
The NEC iS15 we are currently running on a 38' wide scope screen is happy with just a 3kW lamp. However, we are not talking about a "conventional" cinema xenon lamp, but about a specifically designed lamp module built around that lamp type. First generation 1.3k DLP projectors needed a lamp size of about 5-6kW, so you can see that effectivity has indeed dramatically improved, though I can not say how much of that increase is also a function of the higher resolution.

 |  IP: Logged

Bevan Wright
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 176
From: Fountain Valley, CA, USA
Registered: Sep 2003


 - posted 05-24-2005 04:59 AM      Profile for Bevan Wright   Author's Homepage   Email Bevan Wright   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It appears SMPTE/DCI are setting the luminance bar at 14ft-l for D-cinema.

With DLP, the efficiency in 3-chip units has a lot to do with: the tilt angle of the mirrors (new chips are 12deg vs 10deg for the 1.3k), the size of the integrator (2k is larger than 1.3k) and the use of VERY short arc lamps. On 2k systems with short arc lamps the efficiency is about on par with 35mm, 6kW lamp can light up a 70ft screen (1.5-1.8 gain) with better uniformity.

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 11698
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 05-24-2005 06:47 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Subjectively, 12fL on Video does not look as bright as 16fL on film. A light meter is integrating the shutter for film so you don't have a perfect correlation even though you could put a piece of processed "clear" stock in the projector and only read 12fL.

14fL Video sure looks closer to 16fL Film to me when evaluating the same feature. In fact, 16fL looks even better. 12fL definately looks too dim.

There is a certain "snap" as I call it, when the whites start looking good and I just don't see that on 12fL Video (or film).

This area really needs to be better researched to find out how humans process there various projection methods and how the brain interprets the shutter versus the video image...there is more here than merely pointing a meter at the screen and saying A = B.

 |  IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Film God

Posts: 15869
From: Bountiful, Utah
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-24-2005 10:05 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well there is flicker generated by both means but just at differing frequencies, the eye perceivves these different frequency durations as differing brightness levels because of persistance of vision.... the eye perceiving the longer durations pulses of light fomr a film projector as being brighter. In D-cinema the chip is substituted in place of the film so there is still a picture source so to say...... but what would be interesting would be to compare a 3 bladed shutter equipped film projector and a good DLP projector both set to the same f.l. to see if perceived brightness is still different at those same levels.

Mark

 |  IP: Logged

Philip Borgnes
Film Handler

Posts: 18
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted 05-24-2005 10:07 AM      Profile for Philip Borgnes   Author's Homepage   Email Philip Borgnes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Then what this means is that the kw measure really has no meaning. Lamp/projection efficiency is increasing as Michael and Bevan say. Lumens, contrast, screen size and gain are the factors to look at, not the lamp size. I guess there is one critical component of lamp efficiency and that is how long it maintains a stable output. As I understand it even though lamp life might be 1000 or 2000 hours, its output degrades quite a bit by the time it reaches half-life.

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-24-2005 12:11 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Lumens per Watt" for various light sources:

http://www.ysartglass.com/zdbk/Bulbs/LB26efficient.htm

quote:
(An approximate lumen output is given for a Standard size bulb)
Edison’s first bulb 1.4 lumens per watt.
Best carbon filament.16 cp. bulb = approx. 50 lumens 3 to 4 lumens per watt.
Cruto’s synthetic carbon 4 lumens per watt.
Cruto’s deposited graphite 3 lumens per watt.
1905 Metallised carbon filament.
Annealed carbon by Willis Whitney. 4 to 5 lumens per watt.
1897-1912 Nernst lamp 6 lumens per watt.
1907 Squirted Tungsten
30 cp. bulb = 240 lumens 8 lumens per watt.
1910 Drawn Tungsten
32 Watt bulb = 320 lumens 10 lumens per watt.
1912 ‘Half-Watt’ (Coiled filament)
40 Watt bulb = 480 lumens 12 lumens per watt.
1933 Coiled-coil, 10-15% better than coiled filament.
60 Watt bulb = 800 lumens 13 to 14 lumes per watt
1959 Tungsten-halogen
40 Watt bulb = 800 lumens 20 lumens per watt.
1986 Modern bulb (standard)
60 Watt bulb = 960 lumens 16 lumens per watt.
After 86 ??? to be determined 2003
Non-Incandescent Lighting
1898 Moore Tubes c. 8 lumens per watt.
1931 Low pressure sodium discharge 50 lumens per watt.
1938 Fluorescent (Calcium Tungstate) 30 lumens per watt.
1946 Fluorescent (Halophosphate) 60 lumens per watt.
1973 Three band 90 lumens per watt.
1986 Low pressure sodium discharge 200 lumens per watt.

http://www.megavolt.co.il/Tips_and_info/bulbs_at_glance.html

http://www.vigyanprasar.com/wos/electriclight.htm

quote:
Direct sunlight may produce illumination as high as 10,000 lumens per square foot. The maximum efficiency possible from radiant power is 680 lumens per watt.


 |  IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 11698
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 05-24-2005 12:26 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To some degree, you are right..."Wattage" has always been a poor method of light output. There is a correlation between wattage and light output when all else is equal but when there is no frame of reference it is indeed meaningless...beyond figuring out how much electric power to supply (and pay for).

A proper lumen output is always preferred to a mere wattage rating.

However, the SMPTE really needs to step in on such things for projection equipment...contrast too, if not more so. Left to their own devices...manufacturers will always make their systems work better on paper than you will get in real practice. With contrast ratios of 1000:1 that the vidiots spout you'd think that we would have perfect blacks in theatres by now...since the theatre can't get above 500:1 (with very rare excptions).

Same with lumen output...ever read a video projector's lumen output versus what the manufacturer claims? It will almost never reach it in actual practice and it will only approach it with a specific lens set to a particular setting (be it zoomed in such a way or at a particular focal distance). I've measured 4000 lumen video projectors with a single zoom lens that measured about 3850 lumens at its best and 3300 lumens at its worst...all with the same projector, same lens (at the brightest point on the screen).

There really needs to be some standardization on how things are measured (film and video) in such areas so there is some meaning to the readings.

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2018 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.