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» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Large Format Forum   » 70mm Ultrasonic Print Cleaning

   
Author Topic: 70mm Ultrasonic Print Cleaning
Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3632
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 01-26-2001 10:18 PM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
DKP-70mm wants $4000 to ultrasonically clean our print of Magic of Flight. Does anyone know if Kodak or 3M can clean 15/70 prints? I know 3M can photoguard prints.

Oh, speaking of photoguard, we may be screwed . . . the print is already photoguarded. Can it still be cleaned?

Sorry, can't use FilmGuard on 15/70 prints.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9390
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-27-2001 03:41 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
CFI used to be able to ultrasonically clean a 70mm print. What happened to the print to require it to be cleaned. Photoguarding will not affect ultrasonic cleaning

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Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3632
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 01-27-2001 03:56 PM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
It has just over 800 passes on it. It was the theater's opening film and was here during construction in addition to a poor photoguard job on DKP's part. After its initial run, it has been placed in our library and only gets run a few times a week.

I've only been at this theater for a couple of months now, so I don't know the print's complete history. I just can't come up with a good reason why I can't keep the field flattener clean after about 20 minutes. There's no shedding left along the filmpath and the PTRs aren't too bad after the show. All tolerances are ok . . . all of our other prints run fine.

Could the rush job of photoguarding have anything to do with it? There are plenty of dark spots and visible streaking throughout the print, as if the chemicals weren't applied evenly.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 01-27-2001 07:35 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kodak does not have a 70mm ultrasonic cleaner.

When DKP/70mm Inc. cleans the print, they will likely inspect it and evaluate the quality of the PhotoGard coating. It may be that the PhotoGard was applied to the print after it had been used a while, so wear imperfections were not completely covered. AFAIK, DKP/70mm is using the latest Lipsner Smith ultrasonic cleaner that uses the new class of more environmental solvents.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-02-2001 08:37 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Unusual for DKP to do a poor job on anything
What do you clean your field flatner with
I use a antistat antifog called Clear Glass and we very rarely have to hit the ff during a show

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Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3632
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 02-02-2001 10:12 PM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
The story I was told was that they were having problems getting the chemicals to dry properly.

We use Rosco lens fluid and Roscoe tissue or Kimwipes.

This is the only print we have that has a problem. We even have a print of Cirque du Soleil with over 1000 passes that looks great. The print of Fantasia 2K we had was at about 850 passes and we hardly needed to swipe the field lens. Then again, this is the only print we have with photogard on it.

Found out today that DKP gave us the price for photogarding at 25c/ft. The price for cleaning is 10c/ft and they will ship us a case and we don't have to break it down. 3M wanted 8c/ft and we had to break it down. Looks like we're sending it out to DKP at the end of the month.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9390
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-03-2001 12:50 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For no apparent reason we occasionally get a print that is bad at shedding to the ff
usually they are ones that are photoguarded by another company (AF? can't remember the last letter) Unlike DKP70mmINC they photoguard the perf area whereas DKP70mm doesn't let the photoguard go into the perf area only on the image.
I personally think the dirt on the ff is photguard that is being chipped out of the perf holes that the coating has made slightly smaller through a fill in effect.
After about 1000 passes the problem goes away leading me to believe that the sprocket holes are back to there original size for the projectors clearances.
Also the dirt on the ff from photoguard doesn't like to wipe off easily and is semi transparent on the screen

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Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3632
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 02-03-2001 10:11 PM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
That all makes sense. I agree. Very frustrating to see a fleck spinning around the middle of the screen, hit the ff and it only moves to the top of the screen and keeps spinning around! Then you spend the rest of the show waiting for dark scenes and go crazy with the ff, only to find out at the next bright scene that you made it worse.

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Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3632
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 03-19-2001 06:02 PM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
Update: We sent the print to DKP for cleaning. They called us and said "We've run it through twice with PTRs and it looks fine." Thus began a week's worth of bickering back and forth with DKP and IMAX about tolerances, etc. End result, DKP shipped it back, refusing to clean it. They also sent an invoice for $600 inspection and $400 freight.

I ran it the day after we got it back and it was worse than when we sent it to them, so our CP called and started another bickering match and another week of hearing "something's wrong with your projector", even though we were just serviced by IMAX.

To make a long story longer, it's been run about a dozen times since we got it back and now it's definite that it's photoguard all over the ff. I'm embarrassed to run the thing.

I guess we'll just have to cough up $25,000 for a new print and scrap the one we've got, or just eliminate that program from our library.

I'll post a screen shot of the mess later tonight.

Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9390
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-19-2001 07:59 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Is yours a SR or GT machine?
If it is a SR I can't help you but on the regular gap rotor I can probably get you some assistance
Is the photoguard on the perfs as well or is it a DKP photguard on image only?
I think I asked this before by email but that is long lost
If you have SR machines is there any differenc to the FF problem if run on the other machine?

Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3632
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 03-19-2001 08:38 PM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
We are a GT/P3D. We have checked the film on both upper and lower rotors and with/without rain-x. Photoguard by DKP is image-only. All sprocket/stator gaps are right-on.

Current pass count is 844, plus maybe 30 more during construction. Photoguard was done at zero passes. As the story goes, though no one will admit to it now, DKP pg'd it just after they moved into their new facility and had trouble with the application.

The PTRs have started picking up shiny photoguard bits since it came back from "inspection" at DKP, but no noticeable shedding in the film path. Most of the specks on screen are semi-transparent.

And now we have a conference call pow-wow with DKP and IMAX tomorrow at 1pm eastern. Should be interesting.

Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3632
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 03-19-2001 10:21 PM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
Picture as promised. This was taken when it just starts getting bad -- it gets worse.



Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9390
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-20-2001 08:45 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How often does the ff have to be cycled
Also one person you might contact is Russ Cardinell the projectionist at IMAX in Missasagua for help

Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3632
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 03-20-2001 10:13 PM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
That stuff in the picture won't leave the screen. It just rolls up and down when the ff is cycled.

Anyway, after our little conference call, Mac-Free Films is sending us a replacement print. We have a service coming in April, and the tech and maybe someone else will watch our current print to determine what's going on.

DKP's explanation was "every few months we have a print that just doesn't agree with a particular projector but is fine everywhere else."

Thanks for your help!



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