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Author Topic: Film quality VS Blu-Ray Claude S. Ayakawa Film God Posts: 2738 From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 02-28-2010 09:50 PM                        I have started to see movies at a theatre again after the recent sad event my family went through and saw three movies during the last three weeks. Of the three I saw, only the picture quality of AVATAR had pleased me because the original source was digital instead of film and presented in digital projection. The other two, ST. VALENTINE'S DAY and SHUTTER ISAND were film based and that is the way I saw them. I hope I do not offend anyone when I say this but I have come accustomed to the wonderful picture quality of theatrical films on Blu-Ray and found the picture quality of theatre film presentations severely lacking. It stands to reason when a four perforated frame 35mm image is enlarged to fill a large theatre screen, there will be loss in picture quality. This is the reason films shot on 65mm film and presented in 70mm as well as VistaVision & Technirama looks great on a large theatre screen because of the large film format used during production and projection. I will continue to see more movies in a theatre from now on but I still prefer watching them on a 1080p HD screen from a Blu-Ray disc. -Claude  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 02-28-2010 10:31 PM                     I've been griping about how film projection in commercial theaters has been harmed by digital work flows for years. Specifically, the de facto 2K standard for digital intermediate based post production has put film-based movie theaters at a disadvantage to theaters equipped with 2K digital projection. A 2K DI sourced movie is laser recorded onto digital inter-negatives and inter-positives for high speed 35mm release print production. A standard 35mm movie print will have at the very least one generation of loss from the laser recorded source (if not another generation or two of loss). By comparison, a DCI standard JPEG2000 virtual print is sourced from that same 2K digital intermediate with minimal loss in image quality. The 2K standard has long been the real evil in all of this. Hollywood studios need to get past that near HDTV quality standard and step up to the 6K scan/4K DI standard for all 35mm based productions. Their movies are going to look better in every venue as a result. They will look much better on 35mm. They'll even look better in 2K digital projection and still look better on Blu-ray as well.  |  IP: Logged Claude S. Ayakawa Film God Posts: 2738 From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 02-28-2010 10:58 PM                        It looks like digital projection is the way to go because all the digital 3-D films and 2-D films with DP I had seen such as 300 and NATIONAL TREASURE 2 looked awesome on a theatre screen and had that Bly-Ray picture quality. -Claude  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-28-2010 11:05 PM                        Claude - I would bet your local theatres need to have their optics aligned, bulb replaced or ports cleaned...maybe all three, and maybe other work to keep the image as steady as it can be. Another thing to consider is, when you are looking at a theatre screen be it film or digital, you're seeing an image that's EXTREMELY more magnified than it is on even the biggest TV set. Therefore any flaws are going to be more noticeable.  |  IP: Logged Claude S. Ayakawa Film God Posts: 2738 From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 02-28-2010 11:27 PM                        Mike, I have noticed the loss of image quality from 35mm projection in four different theatre complexes - Ward Centre 16, Regal Dole Cannery 18, Kapolei 16 and Regal Pearl Highland The picture quality from 35mm in all of these theatres all sucked compared to Blu Ray. I am aware of quality loss from a 35mm film frame in projection because I had mentioned this in my original thread when I had compared it to 70mm presentations -Claude.  |  IP: Logged Scott Jentsch Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1061 From: New Berlin, WI, USA Registered: Apr 2003 posted 03-01-2010 08:45 PM                        I have found myself becoming increasingly sensitive to bob and weave in film presentations, which I attribute to being accustomed to the rock-steady images coming from my projector at home. The jumping around that film can do creates a blurriness that makes me yearn for a digital presentation, just so that the image will sit still and let me focus on the movie instead of being distracted by the blur. Another aspect that has become a greater issue of late is black level. Some theaters keep their lights up so high, that the screen is unable to show really deep blacks. I figure this is because of fear of injury-related lawsuits, but in my mind, the lights should be low enough that no ambient light should be hitting the screen. There's gotta be a way to illuminate the walkways and stairs so that people can see but not occlude the screen image. Do you think one or both of these might be what you are noticing?  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 03-01-2010 10:29 PM                     This sounds like an issue of film done wrong. A well maintained and operated 35mm projector should be able to show movies in a very steady fashion. Additionally, film based projection can deliver black levels that are superior to the output of any video projector. Unfortunately, many commercial theaters haven't installed the best quality equipment for quite some time and have made the even worse error of making "good enough to get by" the gold standard of presentation quality. Also, a 35mm projector is at the mercy of the quality of film print being shown. Throw in the image quality bottleneck of 2K based digital intermediates and you end up with several variables that are going to deliver film done wrong. Basically it's as if both the Hollywood movie distributors and commercial exhibition companies are pissing on film and deliberately screwing it up so most people will be glad when it is gone. It's a damned shame. BTW, plenty of Blu-ray discs can be done wrong too. Hollywood studios are finding out the hard way they can't dust off some 10 year old, fuzzy, jumpy HD telecine master with a bunch of dirt and specks on the opening logos and well into the movie. That standard was "good enough" for SD 16X9 DVD, but it doesn't cut it for Blu-ray.  |  IP: Logged Claude S. Ayakawa Film God Posts: 2738 From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 03-01-2010 11:43 PM                        Bobby, I agree with you about crappy Blu-Ray discs but the pictures from them most of the time look better than the DVD version and look a hell of a lot better than 35mm theatrical film projection. -Claude  |  IP: Logged Scott Jentsch Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1061 From: New Berlin, WI, USA Registered: Apr 2003 posted 03-02-2010 09:06 AM                        quote: Bobby Henderson This sounds like an issue of film done wrong. A well maintained and operated 35mm projector should be able to show movies in a very steady fashion. Additionally, film based projection can deliver black levels that are superior to the output of any video projector. That's the unfortunate reality that I think a lot of people live with when going to a movie theater. It's also why I can't wait for digital projection to become more widespread. It doesn't matter to me if film can be done better, but rather, which provides the best end result. Unfortunately, digital projection can only solve the jump and weave problems, and not the bright ambient light or improper masking, etc. etc. Most times when I go to a theater, I am disappointed in the experience. I figure it's just me being too picky and expecting too much from an industry that is working with too many challenges to produce the end result that I want. If I ran my own theater, I'd probably go out of business quickly trying to run it like I think it should be run!  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-02-2010 09:37 AM                        Minimum light levels are usually dictated by fire codes. This also explains super-bright red "EXIT" signs that cast light on the screen. In most areas, there is little that can be done.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-02-2010 09:42 AM                     I agree with you Claude! Blue Ray is way better then most 35mm presentations these days. Some Blue Rays actually look far superior then very good 35mm film. Mark  |  IP: Logged Jonathan Smith Expert Film Handler Posts: 201 From: Youngstown, OH Registered: Jan 2010 posted 03-02-2010 11:10 AM                     A double-bladed shutter (2 passes per frame), proper focus, a good projectionist, and a properly-maintained projector go a long way towards making sure 35mm looks better than digital. I saw it with the latest "Twilight" incarnation. Besides one bad 35mm print (out of 3) the 35mm film copies of this Super 35mm film blowup from flat to anamorphic blew away the digital showing we did of it too during midnights during its premiere. The DLP 2K projector had far less grain, but the colors and resolution were flat. 35mm had grain, but sharpness, character. Only movies I want to see projected digitally are movies that are originated digitallly (movies shot on digital cameras, like Star Wars II and III that look like shit projected on film).  |  IP: Logged Tom Petrov Five Guys Lover Posts: 1121 From: El Paso, TX Registered: Jan 2003 posted 01-30-2011 08:43 AM                    quote: Claude S. Ayakawa I have come accustomed to the wonderful picture quality of theatrical films on Blu-Ray and found the picture quality of theatre film presentations severely lacking. I will say this. After watching the Green Hornet in IMAX 3D, the 35mm print running next door in the same sized AMC theatre was nowhere near as good. The RealD image was really bad.  |  IP: Logged Per Hauberg Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 883 From: Malling, Denmark Registered: Jul 2000 posted 07-10-2011 10:01 AM                        I've asked this question a couple of times in others treads on F-T, -maybe this is the place to get an answer: Are BluRays being used for regular cinema presentation (minor titles) at Your place, or only for single night special events ?? I've had several films since I went digital. Small, independent distributors using this possibility to afford a wider presentation, while the films are new. For my small screen, it's definitely no problem - on the contrary, I have to say, the BR is to prefer over a four month old 35mm prints, that ran in a new town every week. -And I guess, it will deliver a pretty good picture even on a 25-30 foot screen. Is it practiced "over there" ?? Per  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-10-2011 10:33 AM                     The only times I've heard of BluRays being used for "Hollywood" movies are for classics that may not be available on film or available to typical film theatres. Once you go into "art" and other non-standard sources, then you will likely find all sorts of media...including BluRay. It is certainly not the dominate form, at this point, as an alternate to 35mm film. -Steve  |  IP: Logged

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