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» Film-Tech Forum   » Community   » The Afterlife   » Are there any camcorder formats that allow real HD resolutions? (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Are there any camcorder formats that allow real HD resolutions?
Joe Redifer
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 - posted 08-26-2007 06:24 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Most camcorder formats I see such as DVCPROHD, HDV and others only record a maximum of 1440x1080 (displayed as a 16:9 picture) and 960x720. This causes my bowels to quiver. I demand the full 1920x1080 at multiple framerates. 1440 horizontal pixels? And interframe codecs? I would expect that from a camera made by Fisher Price which records its video onto audio cassette tapes, but cameras costing $5000 and up?

There is no reason why this can't be done technically and for a reasonable price. The only "reasoning" I can see is because movie studios would cry and whine that the consumer has access to nearly as much quality as they do hardware wise since movies shot digitally aren't any better than HDTV in the slightest bit at all.

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Bobby Henderson
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 - posted 08-26-2007 03:20 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I thought Panasonic's HVX-200 camera was capable of shooting in variable frame rates and at varying resolutions all the way up to 1080p/30fps in DVCPRO format. At least that's what their product specifications suggest. They claim the 3-chip sensor array scans at up to 60p in 1080 resolution.

What's the real story with that camera?

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Cameron Glendinning
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 - posted 08-26-2007 04:27 PM      Profile for Cameron Glendinning   Email Cameron Glendinning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think jvc have a hard disk style, single cmos pickup camera that they say is full 1920 x 1080. Is 3 ccd important anymore? I notice that the RED only has a single cmos.

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Joe Redifer
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 - posted 08-26-2007 05:33 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
DVCPROHD doesn't allow for 1920x1080 resolution.

JVC invented HDV. Any links to their hard disk camera?

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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 - posted 08-26-2007 07:41 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Geez... I woulda thought your playstation 3 woulda had an add on for this..... [Roll Eyes]

I think you have to get into Broadcast Grade gear to get what you're looking for.

Mark

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Joe Redifer
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 - posted 08-26-2007 09:36 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Huh? I don't have a Playstation 3.

Consumers get shafted again just so the pros can pretend that they're better.

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Bobby Henderson
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 - posted 08-27-2007 02:12 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I wonder if Panasonic's HVX-200 camera will record in native 1080p resolution using those P2 solid state cards.

quote: Joe Redifer
JVC invented HDV. Any links to their hard disk camera?
Couldn't find any. The only "HD" cameras I see JVC currently offering are those that record in standard 720p format or the weird HDV 1440 X 1080 format.

If DVCPRO cannot accommodate true 1080p recording, what about the DVCAM or HDCAM formats?

My feeling is direct to disk recording will be the real break-through to make true 1080p capable video cameras more affordable. I'm not sure how well a standard Firewire 800 connection could sustain that kind of bandwidth. Perhaps an interface between HD-SDI and the new eSATA standard for external/removable hard discs might the key for new product development.

This is really a difficult time for anyone buying video cameras because of the transition between NTSC to HD and the state of flux happening in various videotape recording formats. It's not so bad if you're only renting the equipment and you're working on a professional (and funded) project.

Ultimately, I think the tape-based formats are going to disappear and everything will go to hard disc. That strange HDV format isn't going to stay around for too many more years either. The ever growing strength in computing power will eventually make it easy for lots of devices, even very affordable ones, to record in 1080p resolutions. The only things that will remain expensive are the lenses and larger, professional sized CCDs that capture better color and clarity.

I've been wanting to buy a serious "pro-sumer" video camera for a long time, but with all the issues going on in this state of transition I feel I have to spend my serious "fun money" on other things like new graphics software or D-SLR still camera lenses. At least I know I'm going to be able to get a lot of mileage out of those items -and not have to spend quite so much money either.

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Stephen Furley
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 - posted 08-27-2007 02:17 PM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Bobby Henderson
what about the DVCAM
DVCAM is standard definition.

Joe, $5000 is pretty cheap as cameras go, I think you're going to have to pay more than that for full HD.

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Joe Redifer
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 - posted 08-27-2007 05:45 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You're right... at least for the immediate time being. But like I was saying, there isn't a technical reason why they couldn't offer true 1080p and have it look fine and dandy for $5000 or even less. Hell, MiniDV camcorders costing under $1000 when the format was first introduced recorded a full 720x480 in interlaced format which was better than broadcast NTSC (don't even try to bring up those extra 6 pixels). Later on progressive abilities were included in the higher end MiniDV cameras, and that's still ancient technology these days. So I guess I'll have to wait a few weeks for someone to come out with a camera that will accommodate me. And it had better have a firewire800 port for fast(er) transfer of the data.

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Bobby Henderson
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 - posted 08-27-2007 06:34 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think the only reason why affordable or even "pro-sumer" priced native 1080p video cameras aren't available is simply a question of demand in the current marketplace.

Eventually all digital video camcorders will record in 1080p or even higher resolution formats (with something like direct to hard disc recording, why even stay at 1920 X 1080?). Technology improvement is relentless.

For now, HDTV is still a relatively high end item. Worse, most casual computer and video camera users are limited to NTSC. Capture cards that can effectively deal with HDV or higher resolution content are still expensive. We're not quite at the point where an average off-the-shelf retail store computer can hook up to a HD-quality video camera and capture video to disc without dropping at least a few frames. But we will get there pretty soon.

On the "pro-sumer" end of things, I'm kind of surprised certain camera models like the Panasonic HVX-200 apparently don't live up to their product claims (like shooting in formats up to 1080p/30fps). I would be even more surprised if the next generation of $3000-$5000 video cameras from Canon, Panasonic, Sony & JVC lack the ability to shoot true 1080p -at least to solid state cartridges or direct to hard disc. If they're not already working on such designs at this point someone in R&D should be fired.

quote: Joe Redifer
And it had better have a firewire800 port for fast(er) transfer of the data.
I think any 1080p camera, regardless of product class (consumer up to broadcast professional) should have HD-SDI, Firewire 800 or even eSATA connection.

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Cameron Glendinning
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 - posted 08-29-2007 09:26 AM      Profile for Cameron Glendinning   Email Cameron Glendinning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry no links, Jvc evero ? says it will capture at full 1080i, HDV is already been replaced by a new joint sony / panasonic codec, which I saw a split screen demo of at SMPTE recently. Sorry I didnt ask if it was a p (progressive scan) or an i (interlace)

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Scott Norwood
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 - posted 08-29-2007 11:48 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
HDCAM SR could do it, but I don't think that there is a one-piece camera that can shoot it. If not, you would have to have a separate camera and deck. At this point, it's probably cheaper and easier to shoot 35mm film for most applications.

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Bobby Henderson
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 - posted 08-29-2007 05:44 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sony has a couple of one piece HDCAM models that shoot true 1080p content. Trouble is one model costs $30,000 and other runs over $60,000. Ouch.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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 - posted 08-30-2007 11:35 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This one might work for Joe.... at least its not 60 grand. If this doesn't suit him then he'll have to end up spending 60 to 100 grand... Now thats just pocket change for Joe anyway [Eek!] .

Mark

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

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From: Denver, Colorado
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 - posted 08-30-2007 05:36 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I like it, except it can't do full 1080p or even full 1080i. Plus the Panasonic camcorders have a tendency to blow out highlghts to the extreme. The DVX100 is either almost completely dark or over half the screen is pure white with no detail.

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