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Author Topic: Letterbox variations Greg Mueller Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1687 From: Port Gamble, WA Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-16-2006 09:14 AM                        Why does the position and size of the letter boxed picture vary from source to source? Seems like every channel I switch to, puts the picture higher or lower and varies it a bit in size. (This is all from the same satellite receiver). Seems like they would have a "standard"  |  IP: Logged Mitchell Dvoskin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1869 From: West Milford, NJ, USA Registered: Jan 2001 posted 06-16-2006 09:37 AM                     Same problem with DVD's. It seem that whoever does the mastering controls the size & location.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 06-16-2006 10:23 AM                        There is a standard for scanned image areas (SMPTE 96M-2004), but it is not always followed.  |  IP: Logged Ian Price Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1714 From: Denver, CO Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-16-2006 02:50 PM                     For this very reason, at Mountainfilm we decided to run 16x9 animorphic full screen but to run letterboxed images inside the 4x3 frame. We found than no two letterboxed videos were the same and frequently subtitles were placed outside of the letterboxed image. So I like 16x9 and I like 4x3, but letterbox is just a waste of pixels.  |  IP: Logged Mike Schindler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1039 From: Oak Park, IL, USA Registered: Jun 2002 posted 06-16-2006 03:17 PM                     quote: Ian Price So I like 16x9 and I like 4x3, but letterbox is just a waste of pixels. Maybe I'm misinterpreting this statement, but what about movies that were not originally in either of those aspect ratios?  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 06-16-2006 07:55 PM                     The subtitling thing is just plain absurd. Those that have letterboxed 4:3 sources, should be required to have their subtitles conform to the safe-title area of the aspect ratio of the picture. This business of placing them so they chase the bottom of the image (not in the letterboxed area...or worse top line is in the picture, the bottom line is in the letterbox bar) is just criminal. As Ian noted, one can't zoom in and eliminate the letterbox bars (on a widescreen display device). Steve  |  IP: Logged Mike Schindler Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1039 From: Oak Park, IL, USA Registered: Jun 2002 posted 06-16-2006 08:03 PM                     But didn't most 4:3 letterboxed content come out before the existence of 16:9 TVs? Sure, it's annoying now, but I remember watching foreign films on LaserDisc as a kid and thinking how cool it was that the subtitles were on a black background, and the picture wasn't obscured.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 06-16-2006 09:17 PM                     I seem to recall the Return of the Jedi LaserDisc had it's letterbox positioned high in the frame, so those couple of scenes with subtitles could be in the black below. That drove me nuts. Subtitles outside of the picture just distracts from the movie, as it draws attention outside of the image area that you are focused on.  |  IP: Logged David Stambaugh Film God Posts: 4021 From: Eugene, Oregon Registered: Jan 2002 posted 06-16-2006 11:29 PM                        In the early days of letterboxed laser discs, I remember Pioneer or someone trying to convince consumers that the black bars were actually a "feature" that made it easier to read subtitles. I think Brad's right about Jedi being one of the laserdiscs mastered like that. Luckily the idea of putting the subtitles down there never really caught on, or someone figured out it wasn't going to work in the long run.  |  IP: Logged Paul Mayer Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under! Posts: 3836 From: Albuquerque, NM Registered: Feb 2000 posted 06-16-2006 11:57 PM                        AnimEigo used to shift the image toward the top for all of their anime and samurai movie releases. I too liked the subs being completely in the black area. The typical TV display at that time was small enough that your eyes wouldn't be pulled all that far away from the picture, and I liked being able to see the picture uncluttered by the subs. It was no worse than going to see an opera with projected super titles. Plus, I could mask off the bottom for language listening practice without losing any picture.  |  IP: Logged Ian Price Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1714 From: Denver, CO Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-17-2006 05:45 PM                     quote: Mike Schindler Maybe I'm misinterpreting this statement, but what about movies that were not originally in either of those aspect ratios? It may be true that some movies that are letterboxed in their original aspect ratios. But most videos that I run at film festivals are letterboxed in some totally random way. Either just a little letterbox with very small black bars top and bottom to something that looks 2 to 1. Some are high, some change aspect ratios during the program. Mountainfilm videos are almost always amateur productions. Also documentaries draw from many sources where the aspect ratios change.  |  IP: Logged Michael Coate Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1904 From: Los Angeles, California Registered: Feb 2001 posted 06-17-2006 06:23 PM                     quote: David Stambaugh In the early days of letterboxed laser discs, I remember Pioneer or someone trying to convince consumers that the black bars were actually a "feature" that made it easier to read subtitles. Well, it's true. Subtitles are definitely easier to read when you have white or yellow lettering placed against a black background. If I'm watching a foreign film or an English-language film with lots of subtitles for effect ("Dances With Wolves," for instance) on a small to average size TV (27" or smaller), I prefer this. However, if we're talking something like "Star Wars" or "Return Of The Jedi," which feature subtitles only briefly, I'd prefer they be kept on the image as they were on the theatrical prints (especially since in their quest to create "better" subtitles they misspelled a word or two on "Jedi"). quote: David Stambaugh I think Brad's right about Jedi being one of the laserdiscs mastered like that. Just to clarify, the "Jedi" laserdisc with the letterbox image placed high in the frame was the version issued in, I think, 1989 or 1990. It was the first letterbox version released for "Jedi." The subsequent laserdiscs -- and I think there were three subsequent versions of "Jedi" released -- had a centered letterbox image. That "Jedi" laserdisc was pretty crappy when I think back (although at the time I sure was glad to have it). If I remember correctly, the image was placed high in the frame (as previously mentioned), the image was a bit fat (as if the anamorphic unsqueeze during the transfer was slightly greater than 2x), and the sound for the first reel was out of sync. And to think it retailed for $70! quote: Paul Mayer AnimEigo used to shift the image toward the top for all of their anime and samurai movie releases. I remember a lot of those AnimEigo releases, especially the "Lone Wolf & Cub" series. I also remember a lot of those discs -- many of which were scope productions -- being transferred not only high in the frame but at around a 2.00:1 ratio instead of the full 2.35-ish.  |  IP: Logged Greg Anderson Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 766 From: Ogden Valley, Utah Registered: Nov 1999 posted 06-18-2006 08:56 AM                        I remember how the theatrical version of Galaxy Quest started with a 4:3 clip from the "old TV series" and then switched to 1.85:1 for a little while. Then, at a key moment, it went to full-blown 'Scope. I assume most projectionists just left the masking wide open throughout the whole show (starting with the trailers). I understand why the DVD version doesn't have the same aspect changes as the theatrical version but it's still kind of sad that, since the movie might never be seen in 35mm again, this little gimmick will be lost forever. [ 06-19-2006, 01:32 AM: Message edited by: Greg Anderson ]  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 06-18-2006 06:11 PM                        I remember doing a masking change during the opening of some movie. It couldn't have been Galaxy Quest, though. I think I went from 4:3 to 2.39545:1.  |  IP: Logged Mitchell Dvoskin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1869 From: West Milford, NJ, USA Registered: Jan 2001 posted 06-22-2006 09:50 AM                     I remember how the theatrical version of Galaxy Quest started with a 4:3 clip from the "old TV series" and then switched to 1.85:1 for a little while. Then, at a key moment, it went to full-blown 'Scope. Actually, it switches to scope just before the end of reel 1, in a spot that makes no artistic sense. It should have switched to scope when they got to outer space. That would have made sense. At least the flat/scope changes in "Brainstorm" made sense. There is a 1950's scope film called "The Girl Can't Help It" that opens in 1.37, with a man on screen introducing the film. He looks around, then walk over to the left side of the image and pushes it out to the full left width of scope, then walks over to the right side of the image and pushes it out to the full width of scope.  |  IP: Logged

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