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Author Topic: Dual Disc - Could be a great format. Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 05-05-2005 02:47 PM                     DualDisc. Is this an example of the music industry finally waking up and bringing a product to the market that can compete with DVD movies and freeloading music pirates? In the case of Nine Inch Nails' new album, "With Teeth," I would have to say yes. Well, "yes" in the isolated confines of my local area. I visited Lawton's location of Hastings Books Music and Video last night. Hastings' first shipment of the DualDisc version of "With Teeth" was sold out in just one day. Many copies of the standard CD version were still on the shelves despite a $2 lower price ($12 sale price for the CD, $14 for the DualDisc). I had to pick up my copy of "With Teeth" at the Sam Goodys location in the mall. Luckily, they were charging the same for the DualDisc release. What's "right" about this release? Well, in short, there's much more on it than I figured. I knew one side had a CD quality layer and the other side had a DVD-compatible layer with the album in both stereo PCM and Dolby Digital 5.1. The DVD Video compatible layer also contained a complete NIN discography, with music and video segments under many of the album and singles listings. The disc also has an "additional content" section featuring the music video for "The Hand That Bleeds" in both stereo and DD 5.1. But here's the biggest surprise and bonus with this DualDisc release: the DVD side has a second layer in DVD-Audio format carrying the album in stereo and high res MLP 5.1. I was pretty stunned by that considering the packaging had no DVD Audio logos or anything else to indicate a MLP track. Also, I never heard DualDisc was going to support DVD-A content. "With Teeth" could be the first to do it. Hopefully this is a trend that will continue. I think this kind of treatment on a NEW release is the only way how DVD-A and SACD multichannel will finally get some serious market penetration. I'm not going to get into a whole review about the quality/artistic content of NIN's "With Teeth." Suffice it to say I'm a big NIN fan and I'll leave it at that. At any rate, this is the first CD I've bought in quite a while where I thought I got more than my money's worth in the purchase. For $14 or even $17, this isn't bad for all the data layers, formats represented and ancillary content included in the disc. This album is an example the rest of the music industry needs to follow. Instead of bitching about pirates on P2P groups, just market a disc that's a lot better to buy than waste time downloading low quality MP3s. Oh, and here's one additional thing that "With Teeth" got right. They didn't screw up the CD side with all sorts of copy protection shenanigans. I like playing music in vehicle's CD player. But I'm not going to be taking this DualDisc on the road. Anything with DVD data content on it is much more fragile than any CD. So I promptly burned a backup copy of the CD layer on CD-R to play in my truck. I won't worry so much about that copy getting scratched and gummed up with finger prints.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 05-05-2005 06:13 PM                        I have seen at least 4 other releases that do this (can't remember who). I think it is a great idea, even though buying commercial music is something I never do because it rarely is of interest beyond one or two songs which I just download (I refuse to pay for a CD where I enjoy 2 songs maximum. Been burned by that before). But people would have to be idiots to pay for JUST the CD. And aren't DVD-A albums like $50 a pop?  |  IP: Logged Mike Olpin Chop Chop! Posts: 1852 From: Dallas, TX Registered: Jan 2002 posted 05-05-2005 07:20 PM                     Ben Fold's newest album "Songs for Silverman" is available in this format.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 05-05-2005 07:29 PM                     Most "DVD-A" branded releases (such as classic rock catalog title re-releases from Warner Bros. music) have carried $20 to $25 price tags and been purely music-only discs. Foreigner's "4" album is one such example. Sony has taken the same sort of route in a lot of their catalog remasters in SACD format. I can think of a couple old Journey albums released in music only SACD format. At least in the case of Nine Inch Nails, Trent Reznor and others involved have seen things differently. This new NIN album "With Teeth" is a full CD LPCM/DVD DD 5.1/DVD-A MLP 5.1 release with other DVD formatted bonus materials --all for a normal music disc price. It's a new approach and I think a winning combination. The NIN album "The Downward Spiral" is also available in the new DualDisc format (it was one of the original titles used for the format's launch). That one, I think, simply has the CD side and DVD-V compatible DD 5.1 opposite side. "The Downward Spiral" is also available in a new multiple disc package, featuring a remastered CD, custom mixes of particular tunes and the album in SACD multichannel format. SPIN magazine called Trent Reznor one of the most influential people of modern music (if the magazine didn't call him "the most influential" -I can't remember for sure). Hopefully that perceived level of influence may translate over into people seeing just how progressive he is toward advancing the state-of-the-art in recorded music and how it is presented.  |  IP: Logged Jesse Skeen Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1517 From: Sacramento, CA Registered: Aug 2000 posted 05-07-2005 05:25 PM                     "Downward Spiral" is also DVD-Audio. Many of the Dualdisc titles have DVD-Audio except the ones from Sony, because they won't produce DVD-Audio since they're behind SACD (yet they won't release these titles on SACD!) I have "With Teeth" on backorder (got it cheap with a discount where I work but have to wait for it to come in), but also gotta get the new Dualdisc of Britney Spears In The Zone!  |  IP: Logged Bruce Hansen Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 847 From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-13-2005 05:44 PM                     Instead of whineing about coping, the music industry should include "value added" content, like DVD, or decent liner notes, to encourge people to buy.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 05-13-2005 06:36 PM                     For major labels and "A-list" music acts (those who routinely sell millions of albums even if they're derivative crap) I see no excuse for them to avoid releasing new albums in DualDisc format. Most A-list groups are already archiving lots of documentary footage and interviews during an album's production. And the music video of the first single (and maybe even the second) is usually produced before the album hits the streets. All of that stuff can be put onto a DualDisc release, along with various 5.1 audio formats. Hopefully we'll see DualDisc releases with more elaborate treatments in the future. I also have some hope that bands that are not as well known will have some ability to produce stuff for DualDisc. There is reasonably affordable solutions for producing DVD-V and DVD-A content on computer systems. The trick is the mastering and replication cost for DualDisc type discs. The NIN "With Teeth" disc has a structure arguably as complicated as a DVD-14 disc (dual layered on one side, single layered on the other). That can't be all that cheap to produce in a cost per disc basis. Perhaps Interscope/Nothing knew they would sell lots of copies of "With Teeth" to be able to price it in the same cost level as a standard bare bones CD. Of course, it goes without saying, all the technology DualDisc can hold is pretty worthless if the quality of the music stinks. I really like this new Nine Inch Nails album. There's at least three or four tunes on that disc I can see getting heavy rotation on rock stations.  |  IP: Logged Jesse Skeen Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1517 From: Sacramento, CA Registered: Aug 2000 posted 05-14-2005 03:34 AM                     All Dualdiscs thus far are single-layer (but I double-checked my Nine Inch Nails disc on the computer just to make sure.) I don't know if it's possible to have dual-layer DVD on one side and CD on the other. Of course this concept isn't entirely new; the first disc to do this was "Blair Witch 2", which had the DVD movie on one side and the music score on CD on the other. I've got a single by The Calling that has a video on one side and 2 CD tracks on the other as well. I've even seen a number of DVDs that had a test-pressing of train sound effects on the label side- I took all the printing off with alcohol and was able to play it on some, but not all of my machines (so far all the Dualdiscs I've tested work on all of them though.) I wish they'd label 2-sided DVDs the same way as they're doing these, with print covering the entire center rather than just around the edge. I think it was great that they decided to make DVD a 2-sided medium, but people on message boards have bitched about some titles coming out 2-sided rather than a 2-disc set (I bitch if it's the other way around!) and it seems Sony Pictures has decided the average person is too stupid to figure out a 2-sided disc, as they don't seem to be using them on their new titles and they're even reissuing a number of their old titles as 1-sided, dropping the widescreen transfer (I've already sent them an irate letter about that, but that's another story.)  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 05-16-2005 10:38 PM                     The DualDisc version of NIN's "With Teeth" does indeed have a DVD-A layer. That layer of data will not show up in most computer disc drives. You need to have something installed like a Sound Blaster Audigy2 sound card and appropriate drivers to make the DVD-ROM or DVD-RW drive "see" the DVD-A layer. Outside of "With Teeth" I'm not aware of any other DualDisc releases that have added DVD-A content on top of DD 5.1 audio. I think it's interesting to note "With Teeth" debuted at #1 on Billboard's Top 200 album chart. That's on the basis of 275,000 units sold. I don't know how that breaks down between the standard CD and DualDisc however. In scanning some 'blogs about music and DVD-related fare, I'm kind of surprised to see how many people are bitching about this DualDisc format. I'm not sure I understand the motives behind the complaints other than the need for a lot of people to be able to bitch about something. DualDiscs play in standard CD player and DVD players. They don't cost much more at all than standard CDs. So what's the f**king problem? Oh well. Maybe a few folks are just trolling. Some have complained "there's only one music video on 'With Teeth'". Well, yeah. The album's a brand new release and only one music video has been made. Duh. This is roughly the caliber of the complaints. Most others are just people who can't stand NIN and are just using that to poo poo the entire DualDisc format. That's also pretty stupid. Actually, there's one market segment that would be perfect for DualDisc treatment: greatist hits albums. You could have a CD side with just the audio, then a DVD-V side for the songs in 5.1 with their corresponding videos. If all the music videos fit on one layer then another layer could be used for DVD-A or SACD content.  |  IP: Logged Brian Michael Weidemann Expert cat molester Posts: 944 From: Costa Mesa, CA United States Registered: Feb 2004 posted 05-17-2005 03:02 AM                        I think the format is really nice, and it has so much great potential. I got the Ben Folds Songs For Silverman DualDisc. I don't have a 5.1 surround system, but knowing that if I ever got one, or visited someone with one, I could just put the same disc in and enjoy, without having to buy anything over again. The actual content of extras on the Ben Folds disc isn't too extensive, but it's nice to have the little documentary and the Strings version of Landed. My only concern with the format is that eventually, some discs just get scratched. I have some CD's that I've owned for years and, despite the care I take, my front-loading car CD player or some random thing will put just enough of a ding to make it skip. So I have my small list of albums that I'll eventually buy new copies of, just because they're my favorites and get lots of play, and wear. I would imagine that the DualDisc would be really sensitive to that kind of stuff, especially considering that both sides are now vulnerable. I think I should just get into the habit of making my legally allowable back-up copy of a CD I buy, storing the original in its case, and lugging around the copy. In fact, that's what I'm going to do to Ben Folds right now. This album is really great!  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 05-17-2005 02:56 PM                     Yeah, I recommend making a CD-R backup of the CD side. That's the first thing I did when I bought "With Teeth."  |  IP: Logged Jesse Skeen Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1517 From: Sacramento, CA Registered: Aug 2000 posted 05-18-2005 03:00 PM                     I recommend an 8-track tape backup instead. Waiting for them to do a vinyl Dualdisc, with a record on one side and a CED videodisc on the other!  |  IP: Logged Andy Summers Master Film Handler Posts: 397 From: Bournemouth Dorset United kingdom Registered: Jun 2005 posted 07-13-2005 04:47 PM                 Good one bobby…. This is interesting stuff, projectionists are deep in it with heart, I asked about some SACD titles in a shop in Bournemouth this week and they just don’t put a lot of stock into I guess, major low numbers, with all these young kids with there mobile ring tones to sink the British navy, where they hell is all the multi-track score music “John Williams” war of the Worlds like to have that in six-track instead of this 2 channel format which by the way as been around for 23 years now I’m talking about CD the over pried and yes this too is long in the tooth as well, I only have three multi-channel dts mixes like dts music demonstration set-up disc totally indispensable as is dts 5.1 demo and my favourite one is James Horner’s TITANIC wow, my disc goes on… More dts, more dts music mixes for us, the consumer and you too we are all consumers, nothing more…. And get milked is not funny any more….£17 pounds for most CD’s what do they think it is a DVD, sure hell doesn’t look like a DVD just a basic CD to me as for this dual capper sounds good like the flipper DVD and the ole Laserdisc Flippers and dolphin friendly too, it’s important….  |  IP: Logged

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