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Author Topic: What's the science about gray screens?
Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-03-2019 01:42 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Quite a few A/V companies who sell to the consumer market, many of seemingly reputable names, offering screen material that is not pure white but some level of gray; the claims for such screens (usually at price points above standard white screen surfaces) are that purportedly the gray surface "enhances" black levels. I find this to run in the face of logic.

If a projector has a crapola black level spec, projecting on a surface that is darker than white, sure, while it may darken the lousy black level, but it will also do that in the same amount to the quality of the white light reflected back to the eye,...dulling it equally to the amount of gray in the screen.

Another explanation was that if the projector light source is too bright, a gray screen will prevent or reduce "blooming." That also sounds like bad science. If the projector light source is selected correctly to produce the correct reference lumen level, then white should be the only color (actually NON-color) that should be used. Blooming just means the projector is not calibrated correctly and the screen's function isn't to correct that. I can't see any argument for using the screen to correct the failings in the projector.

And while this just seems like logic and a bit intuitive to me, but I haven't actually ever used a gray screen, so I guess my fall-back is, if using a gray screen surface had ANY real advantages, then you would see them in at least some commercial movie theatres. Am I missing something here or is this gray screen material offered to consumers just a scam?

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

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From: Annapolis, MD
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 - posted 07-03-2019 03:33 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Grey screens only make sense in a high-light environment.

So if you are going to run with the lights on, you get a grey screen to lower the ambient reflectivity and then get a big enough projector to compensate for the grey surface. This is how they help with contrast. They lower the black level if your ambient light is the limiting level of black. In a dark theatre, they just eat light while often provide less uniformity.

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Jack Ondracek
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From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
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 - posted 07-03-2019 03:34 PM      Profile for Jack Ondracek   Author's Homepage   Email Jack Ondracek   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know if this relates, Frank, but I once had someone tell me that they put a "drop of black" into their "white" paint, so it wouldn't "show the dirt" as well. Unfortunately, I found this out after I had about half of one of my drive-in screens painted before I realized the paint I was using was not as white as the primer I'd laid down before it.

Basically calling BS on the whole idea, I went to another company that makes "white" what it is, and have used that paint for the last 30 years out here.

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Frank Angel
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 - posted 07-03-2019 07:40 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
Grey screens only make sense in a high-light environment.

So if you are going to run with the lights on, you get a grey screen to lower the ambient reflectivity

Hmmm, call me old school, but you shouldn't be watching movies with the lights on. [Smile]

And you said it, Jack -- there is PLENTY of BS out there. I may have mentioned before in another post, I have an otherwise intelligent friend and brilliant musician who had the most esoteric sound system in his living rm and no doubt it sounded pretty spectacular, tube amps and LP turntable -- lots of really expensive high-end gear, purchased from those audio 'salons' that you need to make an appointment just to have the privilege of walking thru the door. But just spending lots of money wasn't enough. Somewhere along the line he latched on to this idea that audio cables carrying line-level signals and ESPECIALLY phono cartridge signals, they had to be wrapped in...wait for it...magazine paper. And not just any old magazine paper, but the shiny, clay-coated paper -- nothing else wold do. And he went even further and decided he should do that with EVERY cable -- AC power cables, amp to speaker cables...everything. His living room look like something from a really bad science fiction B movie. And of course he insisted he could hear the difference between when the wires were wrapped and when they were not. Amazing things the mind can make one believe.

He also had a 9ft Steinway in his music room. There too, he got it in his head that if he placed these solid brass cylinders, each about the size of a drinking glass, directly on the piano's sounding board, one for each of the rosettes, it would magically and dramatically improve the sound. Of course I was totally mouth-wide-open skeptical and asked how that could possibly be. He yammered away for 20 minutes and it was all gibberish and all I said was, "Are you sure you weren't told these theories on like April Fools Day or something?" At lease the magazine paper didn't cost him anything (other than his dignity), but these brass cylinders cost effin $75 each. Damn scam artists.

But, long ago I learned to let people have whatever it is that makes them feel good...what good does it do to break their bubble? Well, it could save them some money, but money isn't everything (get to my age and that becomes very obvious). But I couldn't resist quietly posing the question, "But don't you think if putting 6 brass cylinders inside the piano on the sounding board would improve the sound of a Steinway Concert Grand Piano, that Steinway would have brass cylinders ALREADY built into it?! I didn't want to be contrary but I thought, there is something to say about stopping him from buying anymore of these silly and expensive brass do-nothings. But alas, he was already convinced and nothing anyone could say would convince him otherwise.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

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From: Annapolis, MD
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 - posted 07-03-2019 08:57 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It all depends Frank. Perhaps the room isn't just for movies and has to deal with say power point shows where the lights will be up. In a home environment they may not want a pitch black room. A meeting room may not be pitch black. These are all areas where a grey screen can be a useful tool.

I agree, in a conventional cinema, they have not real place except maybe to knock down the glare from a pesky exit sign.

This is an area where the direct-view screens are going to win. They can be as bright as needed and as dark, even in high ambient light conditions.

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Randy Stankey
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From: Erie, Pennsylvania
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 - posted 07-03-2019 09:17 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Frank Angel
He also had a 9ft Steinway in his music room. There too, he got it in his head that if he placed these solid brass cylinders, each about the size of a drinking glass, directly on the piano's sounding board, one for each of the rosettes, it would magically and dramatically improve the sound.
I agree that wrapping cables in paper is comically silly but I'm inclined to speculate that placing brass cylinders (essentially weights) on the sound board of a concert grand piano COULD improve the sound in certain cases.

The Steinway piano was designed to be played in a large concert hall. It has to be able to project sound to the back of the auditorium. It does that very well.

However, in a small venue like somebody's living room, a Steinway might produce "too much" sound for the room to be heard well. Placing heavy weights in strategic locations on the sound board MIGHT deaden the piano's resonance just enough, without affecting the overall sound quality too much.

I'm not saying that this is true. I'm only speculating that there might be something to it.

The only way to tell, for sure, would be to perform some scientific tests with a real-time analyzer or some such equipment.

In the mean time, it's not hurting the piano to put those weights inside there and it makes the guy feel good about playing the piano...most good musicians rely on emotional state of mind as much as skill and experience. If it improves the guy's state of mind enough to make him play the piano better then more power to him. [Wink]

I once worked with an orchestra conductor who claimed he had "perfect pitch" and could hear the difference between A=440 and A=441. As you know, that's impossible without a basis of comparison as a starting point. Yet, he swore, up and down, that he could even though nobody I know had ever seen him do it.

We always used to just smile and say, "Okay, Meistro." [Wink]

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Bill Brandenstein
Master Film Handler

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 - posted 07-07-2019 10:50 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Of course, gray screens are supposed to be helpful for high-ambient-light situations, but the concept has always bugged the purist in me. But apparently the best gray screens aren't actually flat. For example, in this video the sharp upward angle of the projector and the angled grooves manufactured into the screen are far more effective than anything I've seen before.

If you look at nothing else, play the video at 1:38 where the presenter varies the angle of a piece of test material and the darkness of it varies significantly.

"Xiaomi 4K laser projector on ALR PET Crystal screen"

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Marcel Birgelen
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 - posted 07-08-2019 01:50 AM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Compared to many of the audiophile bullshit out there, like $1500 dollar UTP cables that make your IP packets "sound" better and audio cables wrapped in panda droppings, the science behind grey screens, or low gain screens as they're also called, is real.

It's primarily used in the home cinema environment, I've never seen a grey screen in a commercial cinema.

Grey screens do not only absorb a certain amount of ambient light, they also absorb a certain amount of the light leaked from your projector. If you have sufficient power to compensate the light you're losing by overcoming the grey, you may not have improved your contrast in an absolute sense, but you did improve your black levels.

Most commercial setups don't have such a light budget to spare or aren't willing to push their lamps to the extremes to get there.

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Frank Angel
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 - posted 07-08-2019 06:38 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thing is, in that Ambient Light Rejecting screen demo, seems that the light rejecting aspect of the screen is much more a function of what looks to be a lenticular surface rather than the gray screen pigment. Ever project on a glass beaded screen? Now THAT kind of a screen would accomplish rejecting room light. If the concern is preserving contrast in a less-than-ideal lighted room (i.e., with lights on), then the solution isn't a gray screen, it's a directional one like a beaded screen or the lenticular screen in the video.

We spoke about lenticular screens before -- while they are not common nowadays because of the manufacturing expense, they were ubiquitous in the 50s and 60s as they were part of the Fox spec for showing CinemaScope -- curved, lenticular and silvered -- all to utilize every lumen of projected light. . I would posit that a screen with directional characteristics is much more of an appropriate way to deal with room light (if you MUST watch a movie with the lights on -- damn consumers), than tinting the screen gray. This screen manufacturer evidently has brought back the lenticular concept...and at a hefty price too.

I am still not convinced that projecting on a gray surface will improve black levels either. You project on a surface that has a negative gain (the gray tint), and yes, the black level of the projected image is brought down because of it, but so is the overall brightness of entire image. Then to compensate for that, you increase the brightness of the image (assuming you have the headroom), but that just brings the black level back up right along with it -- zero net gain. Your black level hasn't really improved at all.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

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 - posted 07-08-2019 08:08 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frank, you are correct. As I said before, grey screens are really about lower the level of ambient light. Beaded screens adding a directional aspect whereas grey screens do not have to and can have relatively uniform coverage or even have gain like properties in their distribution of light.

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Scott Norwood
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From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
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 - posted 07-08-2019 11:22 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I saw one of these once at a local college that had installed it for DLP projection and which later decided to screen some 16mm film in that venue. My impression was that film looked pretty terrible on it.

It seemed to work OK with DLP, though. It's the dreaded "multi-use space," where they have a D-cinema projector that spends most of its time showing Powerpoint stuff.

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Frank Angel
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 - posted 07-08-2019 02:13 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Multi-use space = not good for anything.

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Marcel Birgelen
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 - posted 07-08-2019 02:32 PM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Frank Angel
I am still not convinced that projecting on a gray surface will improve black levels either. You project on a surface that has a negative gain (the gray tint), and yes, the black level of the projected image is brought down because of it, but so is the overall brightness of entire image. Then to compensate for that, you increase the brightness of the image (assuming you have the headroom), but that just brings the black level back up right along with it -- zero net gain. Your black level hasn't really improved at all.
It can and does work. I wouldn't do it with a DCI projector though, because the end result will be crap.

The "blackest black" a projector can produce isn't necessarily 1:1 to the amount of power the light source is pushing in and that's where your potential gain in black levels is.

I know that some home theater enthusiast combine their "low gain" screens with all kinds of tweaks with stuff like madVR, to correctly compensate for it according to the performance of their specific projector. A lot of them are also stupid and combine it with a dynamic iris and/or dynamic light source (LED and Laser) and are looking with wonder at absolute crap pictures.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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 - posted 07-18-2019 08:26 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some Omnimax dome screens had to be coated out in the grayish spectrum otherwise the projectrd image would have been a big ball of diffused light. So most of them had slightly negative gains.

Mark

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Marcel Birgelen
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 - posted 07-18-2019 05:39 PM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Weren't there some experimental dome screens for planetariums that featured some kind of mini-lenses on top of the surface of the alluminium paneling, to essentially do the same what a lenticular screen would do for a "traditional" deep curved screen?

Since the seems between the panels is already apparent in many of those dome screens, I wonder what kind of artifacts this would produce...

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