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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Kinoton FP30D warble/flutter

   
Author Topic: Kinoton FP30D warble/flutter
Richard May
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1057
From: Floral Park, NY USA
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted 05-16-2018 04:01 PM      Profile for Richard May   Email Richard May   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This has been going on intermittently for a while now. There is warbling in the sound. I took out the drum and bearings. Everything looks and feels okay. I changed the sound drum pressure roller. Added the Cardan oil to the rubber bands. Checked the tension. Took off and cleaned all the pad rollers. I can't seem to track it down. Also the film flutters at times when the warbling happens and sometimes it flutters but doesn't seem to affect the sound. It flutters between the second roller after the intermittent sprocket and before the next roller. It only happens on proj 2. I've compared everything between the 2 projectors and can't find anything that seems out of alignment.

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Phillip Grace
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 164
From: ACMI. Melbourne. Australia.
Registered: Mar 2004


 - posted 05-16-2018 05:28 PM      Profile for Phillip Grace   Email Phillip Grace   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Richard. I might have misunderstood your post. You said you added Cardan oil to the rubber bands. The Cardan oil is actually used instead of conventional light machine oil to lubricate the bearings of the lay-on roller. This creates a constant impedance to its rotation, which is vital to stabilize the film as it arrives at the sound drum. The lay-on roller, with its rubber rings should not spin freely. When replacing the rubber bands I usually flush out the roller bearings with meths and check that they run freely, then lubricate with Cardan oil. All of the other rollers around the sound head must spin freely of course. Hope this helps.

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Richard May
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1057
From: Floral Park, NY USA
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted 05-16-2018 07:48 PM      Profile for Richard May   Email Richard May   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's funny because the manual I have says add a drop of Cardan oil to the pressure roller bands as well as the bearings. It also says to lube the shaft with Esso oil, which I did. Regardless, the sound was funky before I did that too. The roller itself definitely does not free spin. All the other pad rollers are very free spinning.

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Sam D. Chavez
Film God

Posts: 2153
From: Martinez, CA USA
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted 05-17-2018 01:02 AM      Profile for Sam D. Chavez   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Do both projector lay down rollers have the same amount of holdback or friction as it were after being oiled? Is there any end play on the roller?

These have the green rubber bands? I believe these were the latest version. Do you have spares? I would change them and see if gets better. I've not seen the bands oiled before? Sounds wrong to me.

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Hannes Ziegenhorn
Film Handler

Posts: 10
From: Großbreitenbach, Thüringen, Germany
Registered: Jan 2017


 - posted 05-17-2018 05:26 AM      Profile for Hannes Ziegenhorn   Email Hannes Ziegenhorn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To stop the fluttering you can try to rotate the pair or rollers following the intermittent a bit. For the sound wobble: at the arm of the preassure roller is a little screw that can set the distance to the sounddrum. If that screw is turned in too far the preassure on the film is to low/the roller can´t put enough preassure onto the film. Loosen that screw a little and try it again.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 05-17-2018 06:23 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The O-rings (rubber bands, drive tires, pick your name...etc.) should NOT have any oil on them and yes, the GREEN ones were the last variation. There were a generation of the black ones that would swell up and fall apart. The green ones will not do that.

As for lubricating with Cardan oil, despite Kinoton recommendations, I'd avoid it. It has never improved any flutter problems for me, only caused them. Additionally, Cardan oil is unstable. It gets thicker with age while out of its canister and as the machine sits, it will pool at the bottom of a bearing and then set up an uneven lubrication.

I've had my best results using a synthetic oil like LaVezzi's intermittent oil (was always handy around our shop and I carried a squeeze bottle of it with me). Used it on the both the drum bearings and the pinch roller. A synthetic oil is going to cling to ball bearings better.

Things to check. Run a pice of film through the projector at speed. When the tail goes through pull the pinch roller off the drum and see how long it takes for the drum to come to a complete stop. You'd like it to be 90-seconds or longer. Anything less and you have too much binding in the drum bearings. The drum bearings are type 6001, which are pretty common. Kinoton uses open bearings so there is amble opportunity for the lubricant to leak out and for dirt to migrate in. Their last generation of bearings used ceramic balls and these definitely did better. I have no idea if Kinoton Digital Solutions can still supply them or not. If not, or you want to source locally, we've used ABEC-5 grade bearings (SKF brand, as I recall), both open and single shield with success. Note, you may find that the bearing receivers (machined into the sound head) are too tight and you may need to sand them open a little (appropriate sized flap-wheel). They should be snug but not so tight that they cause binding on the bearing. if the bearing spun freely when out of the projector, it should spin freely in the projector. At the same time, you don't want to introduce any play into the drum.

If you change lubricant on the bearings, make sure you flush out the old lube and whatever junk may have gotten into them. The bearings should spin totally free before adding any lubricant back.

On an FP30D, look at the double-roller below the intermittent, you can adjust their angle such to minimize the vibrations of the film heading to the sound head. Doing so will help things some too.

With the film running, look at the film after the drum, it should almost look like it is floating on the rollers after the drum and definitely not tugging at all.

If it has Dolby Digital, fire up DRAS and look at how the block is moving. It shouldn't be very violent (lower jitter numbers are better). This can give you a clue as to how the film is moving at the scanning area. If set up right an RSSD should yield numbers on par with a penthouse reader.

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Richard May
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1057
From: Floral Park, NY USA
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted 05-17-2018 09:34 AM      Profile for Richard May   Email Richard May   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks guys. These are the green bands on the rollers. There is no end play on the lay down roller. As far as the lay down roller spinning with any drag, the problem projector has slightly and I mean slightly less drag than the good projector. I will run film and test the drum as Steve suggests. I will also adjust the angle of the 2 rollers right after the intermittent.

As far as the film tugging over the rollers around the soundhead, it definitely does that when the problem happens.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 05-17-2018 09:56 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Look at/replace the drum bearings. You might have something in there that is causing the drum to bind some during the problem times. You can try flushing them but bearings are cheaper than time.

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Richard May
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1057
From: Floral Park, NY USA
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted 05-17-2018 11:35 AM      Profile for Richard May   Email Richard May   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I will replace the bearings ASAP. I just ran film on both projectors and the results were the opposite of what I expected. The good machines's drum spun for 1:22 and the bad one spun for 2:11 after the tail ran out and lay on roller lifted.

P.S. I also just noticed that the tension on the actual lay on roller arm seemed a lot less than the good projector. I loosened the set screw and tightened the knob just a bit which made it a bit more tensioned. Both projectors feel about the same now.

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