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Author Topic: Running 70mm print from 3in cores Steve Roberts Film Handler Posts: 52 From: Whitchurch Shropshire UK Registered: Jul 2016 posted 02-27-2018 02:23 AM                     Has any one here read anything about the cinema in Portland Oregon that ran a polyester 70mm print of Cleopatra off of 3 inch cores on split reels? This did not surprise me at all as today's projectionist are not trained the same way we older guys were. I my day I would not run a kids Saturday morning show from cores. In their defence if the film came with the split spools they may well have thought that is how it was to be shown and not knowing any better that is what they did.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 02-27-2018 08:06 AM                        What is your objection to feeding film into a projector this way? When film was in mainstream use, studio screening rooms, post houses, lab screening rooms and that sort of place would run film that way all the time. Assuming that the split reels are in good condition (no sharp or bent edges), that the film pack had been given a slightly tighter wind than an archival wind during inspection, and that the back tension on the feed spindle had been set to take account of the small film pack diameter towards the end of the reel, I don't see a problem. In fact, I'd rather they played a print from split reels in good condition than on beat-up house reels.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-27-2018 09:16 AM                     Well, the 3 inch cores are not really a good idea for 70mm. Typically the reel arm tension is set for house reels and does the projectionist really know how to re-adjust the clutches properly? From what I've seen I'd say probably not. No objection to the splits from me either as long as larger cores are used and the tensions are properly adjusted. 70mm house reels typically have 10 inch hubs!!! Larger reels to accommodate two 70mm reels have 6 or 8 inch hubs. But running from the three inch cores was a dangerous idea that likely put the print in jeopardy. Mark  |  IP: Logged Sam D. Chavez Film God Posts: 2153 From: Martinez, CA USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 02-27-2018 09:42 AM                       I agree with Mark and would also add you might end up with focus problems getting toward the end of the reel. Maybe less sensitive issue for Polyestar than Cellulose.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-27-2018 12:40 PM                     You'd also likely have big problems with wow and flutter getting towards the end of the reel on a projector like a Simplex 70mm where there is no feed sprocket. Mark  |  IP: Logged Bill Brandenstein Master Film Handler Posts: 413 From: Santa Clarita, CA Registered: Jul 2013 posted 02-27-2018 02:12 PM                     I'd like to see a video of that reel spinning at 120RPM by reel's end - hopefully without the aforementioned tension problems!  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 02-27-2018 06:26 PM                     Leo, a 3 inch core, even if the feed clutch tension is reduced, is still a painful brute force pull on the film that is spinning even faster than 35mm at the end of the reel. All of the labs I've been to have various motorized feeds for running off of cores, so they can control the torque exactly. This theater does not have that. This should not have been done. Apparently this is the ONLY print too. This is no way to treat an archival print!  |  IP: Logged Sascha F. Roll Expert Film Handler Posts: 140 From: Berlin, Berlin / Germany Registered: Sep 2015 posted 02-27-2018 08:22 PM                     It‘s even a print off the original 65mm camera negative, absolutely stunning. Saw it last september.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 02-27-2018 09:19 PM                        Brad - point taken about rock 'n roll projectors in labs and screening rooms having motorized feed spindles. What was going through my mind was the dogmatic "never play from a split reel" approach, to the exclusion of all other factors, and I was comparing it to the Pavlovian "reel to reel = good / platters = bad" belief that is taught in film archiving schools. I've encountered so many prints (16, 35 and 70) that have been brutalized by sharp and bent house reels that I wasn't ready to pass judgment on this venue without being in possession of all the facts. Agreed totally that the small diameter of the last 200-300 feet of 70 on a a 3" core makes for a scary rotation speed on the feed spindle. This is not something I'd do out of preference, but if I were faced with a "lesser of two evils" choice between beat-up house reels and split reels in good condition, I'd want to evaluate all the relevant variables before making a decision. Of course any venue running reel-to-reel prints should have a sufficient supply of house reels in good condition on which to mount all the prints in good time for their screenings. But in arthouse venues that have a high throughput of prints that play one show only, that can be wishful thinking.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 02-27-2018 10:50 PM                     Leo, I know ideally you would want to have all reels heads up and in a line (or stack) before the show starts, but if a changeover theater is THAT short in supply of reels, they could've easily pulled it off with 4 reels and simply had everything tails out on cores before the show started to rewind to reels as each reel was called for (and the prior reel became available). Instead what happened was one of two things: 1. The projectionist didn't care. 2. The projectionist didn't know any better. I find neither acceptable.  |  IP: Logged Jean-Pierre Gutzeit Film Handler Posts: 43 From: Berlin, Berlin, Germany Registered: Nov 2012 posted 03-02-2018 05:50 PM                        3 inch cores are in my opinion neither suitable for 16mm, 35mm nor for 70mm during a running projection without "dancer control" (4 quadrant control). [Sorry for translation problems from german to english.] Each split reel runs in the projection more instable and restless than a correctly aligned projection reel. Split reels are narrower than projection reels and comparable to transport reels. On the majority of existing universal projectors (35mm&70mm), transport reels run with unwanted tendency to jump out of the film laterally from guide rollers. From CLEOPATRA several 70mm LPP prints must exist since 2004. The first print I saw in 2005: a print struck of the original negative, but with fluctuating color and light balance and a complete departure from the usual additive printing in Zero Close cut with 96 images in the fade. The second print I saw in 2009 as a print of the Internegative with extremely fluctuating color and light balance and frightening graininess. Another print run in Oslo should be much better, allegedly an archive print that was not distributed. It is doubtful that the performance of the labs at the time of the first run prints was anything approached. The last flawless Fox-print that I had seen was ALIEN 3 from 1992. After that it went downhill steeply with the 70mm printing.  |  IP: Logged David Kornfeld Film Handler Posts: 24 From: Cambridge, MA/USA, USA Registered: Apr 2017 posted 03-11-2018 01:27 PM                     Heres a picture of whats being discussed here: Obviously, this should never be done: the damage to the print can be irreparable. Does anyone know which theatre did this? Theres certainly no good excuse for it.  |  IP: Logged Jonathan M. Crist Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 531 From: Hershey, PA, USA Registered: Apr 2000 posted 03-11-2018 03:59 PM                     Hollywood Theatre, Portland Oregon You Tube Video  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-11-2018 05:19 PM                     Sheesh! If they can't afford some used or even new 70mm reels they ought to get a kickstarter going. In the mean time, someone ought to alert all the film distributors currently handling 70mm prints and warn them away from booking their prints into this place. Mark  |  IP: Logged Tim Androes Film Handler Posts: 34 From: seattle, washington, united states Registered: Aug 2015 posted 03-11-2018 07:44 PM                     In the video it looks like the take-up reel is a 35mm floating hub reel being mounted on a 70mm take-up shaft.  |  IP: Logged

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