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» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Justice League 70mm C/O Cues (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Justice League 70mm C/O Cues
Aaron Ridenour
Film Handler

Posts: 6
From: Seattle. WA, USA
Registered: May 2010

 - posted 11-15-2017 08:07 PM      Profile for Aaron Ridenour   Email Aaron Ridenour   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Change-over houses please be advised: Your Justice League change-over cues may be outside of the printed image area.


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Sascha F. Roll
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 108
From: Berlin, Berlin / Germany
Registered: Sep 2015

 - posted 11-15-2017 08:15 PM      Profile for Sascha F. Roll   Email Sascha F. Roll   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What the ....

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Jim Cassedy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1567
From: San Francisco, CA
Registered: Dec 2006

 - posted 11-15-2017 08:29 PM      Profile for Jim Cassedy   Email Jim Cassedy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
- - - but they're much easier to see there! [Razz]

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Brad Miller

Posts: 17695
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

 - posted 11-15-2017 09:47 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
That's doing it wrong! [Confused]

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5200
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

 - posted 11-15-2017 10:41 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Geez, are the lab tech so far removed from film that they don't even understand how changeover cues you have to SEE them? No "may be" about it -- assuming that this is not just some weird framing of that particular shot done on purpose (someone looking at the guy thru a window frame or some such) those cues will DEFINATELY be where you won't expect them to on the masking. Other than that, maybe you will need to play this with no masking at all. Oh problem; half the theatres do just that nowadays know, Film (or Digital) Done Wrong (and a tip of the hat to the late, great and much missed, John Pytlak -- our old friend and Academy Award Winner). [beer]

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10727
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

 - posted 11-15-2017 11:39 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, it's SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) for most commercial movie theaters to show movies with no movable masking. So, yeah, if you wanted to show Justice League correctly (with all the extra steps Brad is doing) the cues would not be visible. I guess the lab thinks all these prints will be run only from a platter and single projector setup.

I sort of like seeing the cue dots at reel changes. It contributes more to that movie feel.

One other thing I really don't like about these Justice League prints is the freaking window-boxing. I expected to see the usual pillar-boxing phenomenon common to 1.85:1 movies on 70mm film prints. The window-boxing is just ridiculous. Maybe not as ridiculous as the 35mm prints of Fantasia in 1990 (seriously window-boxed). But it's bad.

When I see window-boxing I instantly think of cheap/shitty TV commercials playing on 24 hour cable news/emotion porn channels. They might have initially made the commercial in HD quality, but it got dumped down to SD-quality out of fear the target audience was comprised mostly with luddites using old TV sets. Then when everyone was stuck with using HD no one could seem to find the original HD source tape. Window-boxed video is the end result, one good definition of Presented In ShitVision.

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Steve Roberts
Film Handler

Posts: 52
From: Whitchurch Shropshire UK
Registered: Jul 2016

 - posted 11-16-2017 03:25 AM      Profile for Steve Roberts   Email Steve Roberts   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is one of the ONLY occasion when a projectionist should add new cue's using a black marker pen to make a SMALL cue dot.
This way they can be removed at the end of the run.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5200
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

 - posted 11-16-2017 06:24 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, I must confess, it has always gone very much against my every instinct to mare a pristine print with handmade, scribed cue marks, even when lab cues are missing and even though it is a perfectly acceptable thing to do. Especially after platter operation began to dominate the industry and I KNEW changeover cues were unnecessary in the majority of the houses those prints would play and for the rest of the print's life. We would indeed get many such prints as we played many sneaks and foreign prints that had no lab cues.

So in order for me to not get an involuntary facial twitch for a week caused by having to scratch emulsion off a pristine print and making an irreversible, visible scar in the emulsion that would intrude on everyone who saw that print...forever, I went to another method that I am sure I must have mentioned here in the past. For the youngin's, I will repeat it:

This method not only will create cues that can be removed later for those brothers and sisters who will run this same print on platters, but to the audience, it looks MUCH better than even the neatest scribed cues that are always more distracting than lab cues because they are always brighter than lab cues (emulsion is scratched away) and no matter how neat you think you can make them, even with the scribe tool, they still are "alive" and dance if only around the edges of the circles.

In the booths I have rolls of artist's line tape (black, of course) clicky here: Artists line tape.  -

I apply it over the four Motor Start frames and the four Changeover frames. The 1/8 inch width is perfect as it is about the same width as the diameter of the scribed cue. In fact, once I saw how good this looked on the screen compared to emulsion marring cues, I started using it to cover cues on all prints other than those with real lab cues. The "cue lines" as I called them, covered those horrid multiple hand-etched cues made by multiple blind projectionists over the years especially on old prints of classic titles -- you know, the operators who evidently needed an explosion of light to go off in order to notice a cue. I've seen many prints where guys felt they need to use a razor blade to scratch over perfectly good and visible lab cues. WTF?

Anyway, using this black, adhesive-backed artist liner, sometimes to add cues where none exists, but most times just to cover ugly, distracting, dancing circles etched on top of more circles. The beauty is, what this cue method looks like on the screen to the audience is simply that for those fractions of a second, the image gets a wee-bit narrower -- like a lab masking issue; no question it's MUCH less intrusive, yet still does the job very effectively -- it's visible, it's black not white, and it covers a multitude of sins. It is so neat that it truly looks like something a lab did, not a human hand having at and scarring the emulsion. In fact, I had a a few projectionist friends sit down an watch a screening where I had used this method; I didn't mention anything about it and after the show, without me even commenting, a discussion started when one of them asked, "Did you see those strange changeover cues?" I was amused to hear them all trying to figure out what the lab did...was it on purpose or was it an error? One of them actually said he didn't see any chaneover cues at all (of course he was the youngest and only worked platter booths, so he knew what they changeover cues looked like, but since he never had to actually make changeovers, his mind wasn't attentive to them so he totally missed the connection that the frame masking anomalies were changeover cues. All of them thought they were done by the lab.

In my first experiments with covering ugly scribed cues, I tried cutting squares of the line stuff to cover just the circles, but because I could never really get the snippets of material to be exactly the same shape or put the four of them in exactly the same location, while they were black and did cover the dancing scribed circle cues, they themselves looked animated. Simply laying a line down the side of the full four frame was more effective (and much easier). Plus, that line of tape was less likely to come off the film than multiple small bits of material. BTW, the adhesive backing was so good that in all the years I have been using it, none have ever come off the prints. That said, it could easily be pulled off in a platter booth operator cared to, although I don't think the splice jockeys would be that conscientious.

I have also used the thinner, 1/16in width material to cover those diagonal scratches that some Neanderthals would scratch across entire frames, you know, in case they miss the circle. Sure, the audience does see the black lines, but no question, they are a lot less intrusive and less jarring than what white emulsion scratches look like to the audience.

And yes, Bobby, I get the nostalgia thing that those of us of a certain age have for what we have been seeing since childhood every time we saw a movie, (change-over cues), but still, that's just us. And as much as I can romanticize with the best of them over the "film look," I will readily admit that a lot of it is totally subjective -- changeover cues, while they are perfectly comfortable for us, you have to admit, objectively they are superfluous and only an artifact of film that is intrusive.

For those who have grown up in the digital age, to them, cues add nothing positive to the viewing experience and more than likely are seen as just distracting and another reason for them to claim that digital is "cleaner than film and has no scratches or whatever those stupid circles are in the corner" as I heard someone once argue. Sure, cues marks are synonymous with film, but even I have been covering them up for decades!

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Stephan Shelley
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 721
From: castro valley, CA, usa
Registered: Nov 2014

 - posted 11-16-2017 06:04 PM      Profile for Stephan Shelley   Email Stephan Shelley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
These cues are not in the negative like the days of past but scribed in after printing a processing. They even have marks where they made there measurements.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8002
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

 - posted 11-16-2017 06:16 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I suppose that the one good thing about cues like this is that venues that do not need them (platter houses or automated c/o houses) can cut aperture plates that mask off the scratched cues so that the audience never sees them.

Otherwise, the idea of having cues that are only visible on masking is completely idiodic. Those cues are awfully big, too.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8353
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

 - posted 11-16-2017 06:32 PM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
....could have made them a LOT smaller-even a pinhole.

You see those cues on a good sized screen, that's really going to distract being white on black...!

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12298
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

 - posted 11-17-2017 06:36 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Those cues are consistent with lab scribed cues for 70mm. I'm sure they don't have a jig for the idiotic framing that was used on Justice League. That said, I've definitely seen my share of rather small cues (same size as 35mm so when used on 70mm appear significantly smaller).

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Rick Raskin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1092
From: Manassas Virginia
Registered: Jan 2003

 - posted 11-17-2017 07:57 AM      Profile for Rick Raskin   Email Rick Raskin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When I was projecting at Ft. Benning in my army days we'd often get films that were so new that the prints had no changeover cues at all. We'd use a grease pencil to make our own cues, which could easily be removed when the print was shipped out. I don't see why that process wouldn't work here.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7132
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

 - posted 11-17-2017 07:59 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, those cues were done with a 70mm Clint Phare scriber. We had one at my last workplace.

FotoKem normally do excellent work, but changeover cues seem to be their Achilles' Heel. I've had at least three (that I can remember) 35mm 1.85 hard matted prints in which the film was placed in the wrong pins of the scriber, resulting in cues on the black matte above the frame (and thus invisible).

quote: Steve Roberts
This is one of the ONLY occasion when a projectionist should add new cue's using a black marker pen to make a SMALL cue dot.
This way they can be removed at the end of the run

Black marker pen? Firstly, it'll be nearly invisible on a dark scene, and secondly, if the marker ink is not water-based, it won't come off at all. And if you mark the emulsion side, it certainly won't come off, whatever the dye is made of (because the emulsion will absorb it).

Unless there's a strong argument against it (e.g. the booth is very noisy), I would always prefer click strips using good quality splicing tape than marking the print. That's as near to 100% guaranteed as you'll ever get that the cues can be removed without a trace.

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Arthur Allen
Film Handler

Posts: 98
From: Renton, WA, USA
Registered: Aug 2001

 - posted 11-17-2017 08:50 AM      Profile for Arthur Allen   Author's Homepage   Email Arthur Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frank: Canadian television used the technique you mentioned. I always wondered why, and then in college I found a book written by a Canadian television engineer who advocated the practice.

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