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» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Changing speed on FP-30D (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Changing speed on FP-30D
Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3040
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 10-22-2015 10:26 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Had an email yesterday asking if we can run an eight minute silent short on 35 mm in December.

We have a pair of scrap aperture plates badly cut for some other format, and replaced years ago, so I could re-cut these. Would only need one machine done for this film. we have enough screen available that we could use the Academy lenses. Can't shift the lens axis; I'm still thinking about that one. The Cinema Museum run silent film on FP-20s, I can ask the projectionist there how he gets around this problem. Looked at the loops, and there's no scratching within the silent frame area. The film is on safety stock. BFI recommend 16-18 fps, so it sounds like it's an early one, I don't know the title yet. The motors are driven by a box marked Kinoton 8100. Above this, between the two relay boards, is a board with three buttons, white, black and red, which select 24, 25 and 30 f.p.s.

There's a large removable cover on the front of the 8100 unit, which reveals nothing interesting, and a small one behind which are a three digit seven segment display which normally displays twice the frame rate, so presumably the output frequency of the inverter, and four buttons, PRG, up arrow, down arrow and SH. If I press PRG the display changes to C50 and if I then press the arrow buttons this number changes, but not always in steps of 1, and the motor speed doesn't change. SH button doesn't seem to do anything obvious.

Given the inverter drive system I'm sure that it must be possible to reduce the speed of the motor somehow, but I can't work out how. Any ideas.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 15885
From: Bountiful, Utah
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-22-2015 12:44 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Assuming it uses the Lenze inverter then you need the manual for that in order to see how to adjust the output frequency. Check the Lenze web site for the manual. I have a PK-60D here at home that uses the Lenze... There is a small toggle switch on the relay board to select 24 or 30 fps. I never messed with the adjustments on mine but I suspect I could program the 30 fps speed to a silent speed pretty easily and save the setting in the Lenze. You can likely do exactly the same.

I have used Baldor drives successfully in the past for variable speed and they are very similar to the Lenze.

Mark

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 11749
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 10-22-2015 01:00 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not really familiar with the 8100 version of the controller though I "think" it is the one that required a separate snap in control panel to have a display of any type. The three speed presets on the 8200 are stored at C37, C38 and C39 so that is where I'd probably start looking and if the values in those positions are double the fps...then I think you'll have found your preset entries.

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Jonathan Wood
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 185
From: Oxfordshire, United kingdom
Registered: Jan 2008


 - posted 10-22-2015 03:16 PM      Profile for Jonathan Wood   Email Jonathan Wood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That sounds like a Lenze 8100 series inverter ? From your description it sounds like it has the control interface built into it (some needed a separate keypad which you attach to the inverter to control it) if so then it's prob configured for external control rather than by the built in controls. You need to find the parameter for 'digital operator control ' and enable it , then just dial in the HZ. In my FP40 I had to replace the lenze vfd with a different model because I couldn't get hold of the keypad to change the parameters.

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Fabian Schreyer
Film Handler

Posts: 63
From: Aachen, Germany
Registered: Feb 2009


 - posted 10-22-2015 10:29 PM      Profile for Fabian Schreyer   Email Fabian Schreyer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think it should be quite easy to reprogram the Lenze inverter. But don't you think that a classic FP30D running at 18 or even 16 fps will leave you with some heavy flicker?

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3040
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 11-10-2015 05:55 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve,

I've found a manual for a slightly different, but similar model. It says that C50 shows the current output frequency, which does seem to be the case.

C39 shows 60 at the moment, so it looks like you are probably correct. If I can change this to 36 I should be able to get 18 fps on the button which is doing 30 fps at the moment.

Have cut a plate, slightly undersized so I can finish it to match the actual print.

If I loosen the bolts I can move the projector slightly to centre the image. The silent short is the only 35 mm film to be run that day, so that will be ok. Am using the right-hand projector, so this will reduce the keystoning, not increase it.

Fabian,

Yes, we will get some flicker. The BFI recommend 16-18 fps for this film, so we'll go for the higher figure. A two-flash shutter is not ideal, but we cannot change that. Our 35 mm picture is rather bright; if we wind down the lamp current a bit the flicker will be less noticeable. It's only for eight minutes, we can get away with it. I've seen silent film running with conventional two-bladed shutters in the past, and this shouldn't be any worse than that.

I don't actually know what the film is yet; I'll have to ask.

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3040
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 11-11-2015 03:49 PM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you all for your help, I have managed to get it running at a suitable speed. The BFI recommend 16-18 fps, but it makes a surprisingly large difference to the visible flicker if run at 19. I think we can get away with that.

The film is from 1909, and is 'A Glass of Goat's Milk'. I know nothing more about it yet.

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System Notices
Forum Watchdog / Soup Nazi

Posts: 215

Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted 02-17-2017 06:20 AM      Profile for System Notices         Edit/Delete Post 

It has been 463 days since the last post.


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Pete Hobday
Film Handler

Posts: 23
From: Bristol, Avon, UK
Registered: Jan 2014


 - posted 02-17-2017 06:20 AM      Profile for Pete Hobday   Email Pete Hobday   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Stephen

We're currently looking at doing exactly the same thing with our 2 FP30D's, as we have a silent film company wanting to start running old archive prints with us

I was wondering if you had the time at all to let me know how you managed to change the inverter settings on your projectors to be able to change the frame rates suitably please?

Would be extremely grateful!

Many thanks
Pete

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Steve McAndrew
Film Handler

Posts: 84
From: Hemel Hempstead, Herts, UK
Registered: May 2015


 - posted 02-19-2017 02:45 PM      Profile for Steve McAndrew   Email Steve McAndrew   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi

If your FP30s have the same invertors as my FP30s & FP20s (Lenze EVF8201-E), I have the programming panel for this model. Let me know if you want to borrow the panel.

As far as I know the frequency setting on the invertor is twice the frame rate, so I guess you need to set the invertor to 36hz??

I think I have the complete inventor settings for an FP30 somewhere too.

Let me know if I can help

Steve

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Sascha F. Roll
Film Handler

Posts: 66
From: Berlin, Berlin / Germany
Registered: Sep 2015


 - posted 02-19-2017 05:09 PM      Profile for Sascha F. Roll   Email Sascha F. Roll   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I hope you do all have the 3-blade-shutter for your fp20/30 or the picture will be flickering as hell...

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 11749
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 02-19-2017 07:47 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It all depends on the pulley ratio and how the intermittent is tied in but yes, in general, frame rate = double frequency because the intermittent shaft speed is 1440RPM for 24fps. so, if you have a 1:1 ratio on your motor pulley to intermittent pulley and you are using a sync motor such that 60Hz = 1800 (or 50Hz = 1500RPM (or close enough to that...damn 50Hz countries), then yes, 48Hz = 1440 RPM or 24fps on a Kinoton Intermittent.

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Hannes Ziegenhorn
Film Handler

Posts: 2
From: Großbreitenbach, Thüringen, Germany
Registered: Jan 2017


 - posted 02-20-2017 03:50 AM      Profile for Hannes Ziegenhorn   Email Hannes Ziegenhorn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The latest Kinoton projectors (afaik since 2003 or so) had Lenze SMD inverters installed. The smaller ones with a red 7 segment LED display. They can be programmed without a special panel.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 11749
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 02-20-2017 05:55 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The 8200smd was used earlier than that. I believe the switch happened either late 2001 or early 2002 (for projectors...I believe the spool towers continued with the 8201 for a period longer). The transition happened after the switch away from the hammertone paint and the pad shoes that would stay open for threading, both of which happened late in 2000.

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3040
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 02-20-2017 10:53 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Pete,

I've only just read your post as I haven't been here for a few days.

I can't remember the details at the moment, but I can work it out again next time I'm at the cinema if somebody else hasn't told you before then.

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