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Author Topic: 70mm Mag Stereo Speaker Placement Mitchell Dvoskin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1869 From: West Milford, NJ, USA Registered: Jan 2001 posted 03-23-2015 12:25 PM                     First, was 70mm Mag Stereo circa 1964 4 track or 6 track? Second, could someone please tell me the speaker placements?  |  IP: Logged John Eickhof Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 588 From: Wendell, ID USA Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-23-2015 12:32 PM                        Original mix 70 releases were 6 channel all the way through the end. 4 track was mixed for 35mm releases. Looking at the screen from the booth starting at the left screen, 5 screen speakers placed were LEFT, LEFT EXTRA, CENTER, RIGHT EXTRA, RIGHT, with the SURROUND speakers in the auditorium itself. There was no subwoofer chan. or any split surrounds. 35MM magnetic sound used a trigger tone to activate the surround channels when signal was present, this kept the background hiss to a minimum. Once Ray Dolby perfected the noise reduction for the background noise on mag tracks the later 35mm prints did not use the trigger tone and the surround channel was on at all times. (Mid-late 1970s)  |  IP: Logged Sam D. Chavez Film God Posts: 2153 From: Martinez, CA USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 03-23-2015 12:50 PM                       WE ran "WoodStock" yesterday at our all Simplex XL screening room yesterday and the 12Khz trigger tome was there for sure. The tone comes on a little ahead of the surround track to give the circuit enough time to open as it were but it's mildy annoying as it signals surrounds to come any moment now. Later 35 Mag did not use this pilot tone as the oxides had gotten finer and less noisy. Dolby NR helped as well on prints encoded with A type.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-23-2015 02:50 PM                     70mm magnetic was always a "6-track" medium since 1954 onwards. The use of all 5 screen channels diminished over time and all but vanished after 1977 and Star Wars though there were exceptions like "Annie." Reissues of classic titles but with Dolby NR also kept the original mix. I don't know why 35mm 4-track was brought up since it wasn't part of the original question.  |  IP: Logged Terry Monohan Master Film Handler Posts: 379 From: San Francisco CA USA Registered: May 2014 posted 03-23-2015 09:03 PM                     It was so nice during the 70mm roadshow days to hear 5 separate stereo channels behind the screen for a full wide screen sound. If someone was talking way over on screen right that speaker was on. The speakers followed who was talking on the screen. Even though they only had one surround ch It was still very effective for off screen sounds used a few times for wind, thunder, ect. When stereo music was used on a 70mm film It sounded so great with all five speakers going on like a full orchestra behind a big huge curved 70mm screen. Now they mix all the voice's just to the center channel with 3 speakers behind the screen. At least now we have a choice of many channels in the surround speakers. I have been to many big movie theatres and they did not have room for all 5 speakers on stage so they hid the far right and left speakers for a 5 speaker 70mm set up in the sides of the screen in a organ loft or hidden side grill section. This was ok for music but for talking It was a little strange. I'll be going to the Castro Theatre in SF on Tuesday 3/24 for SF's first showing of Inherent Vice in 70mm film. I believe the Castro has a five speaker 70mm set up. Hope they mixed the 70mm film print of Inherit for 5 channels on stage. The Castro has some of the worst surround speakers in any large theatre, they are hardly ever turned up and very week in fidelity. The used surround tan colored speakers were brought over to the Castro many years ago from the old Blumenfield Alhambra Theatre on Polk St now a gym. It's time for the Castro to bring in Myers sound for a good rich deep base sound with proper surround speakers.  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 03-23-2015 09:11 PM                        As usual, Steve G. is right. I have found, however, that there were far fewer 5 across prints than others thought. Even 2001 used blended channels to source #2 and #4. Many others, too, in the before-Dolby era. Unless the cinema was really wide, you could turn off 2 and 4. I was told the reason for this is that there was only one mixing room equipped for 5. Several equipped for 3 left over from Scope. If the picture became delayed, it missed its booking for the room and another plan had to be used. Hard to believe in this day of everyone having a good room.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-24-2015 06:30 AM                     There were indeed a fair number of "Spread" mixes where LC/RC were derived channels. I do maintain that 2001 was a good example of where the spread worked extremely well. I've listened to that movie a great deal in various formats and the 70mm mix was a rather good one. LC/RC did their job and the movie is definitely inferior when only 3 screen channels are present. Phantom channels when the speakers are far apart just doesn't work. The way some people tune up rooms also kills phantom channels due to phase relationship issues. An example of a bad 70mm 5-across would be Bridge Over the River Kwai...I think it is mono out of 5 speakers. More is not better and if you are not going to pan the dialog, then don't bother having it come out of anything but Center...it is more distracting. I'm hearing panned dialog more from animated features than live-action ones in modern movies...and that is to be expected, I guess. You know where everything is going to be in an animated feature. Probably my favorite 70mm mix was Sound of Music...just a real good use of a soundtrack and the capabilities of the day.  |  IP: Logged Mitchell Dvoskin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1869 From: West Milford, NJ, USA Registered: Jan 2001 posted 03-24-2015 02:07 PM                     Thank you everyone. What prompted my question is that I just watched the new Bluray of First Men In The Moon, and while I had previously only seen the film in 35mm mono, the 5.1 tracks sounded like it had been taken from the original 70mm mix. Of course, I have no way of knowing if that is indeed the case, but it reminded me of the great 70mm sound I heard as a youth, as opposed to a more modern remix.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-24-2015 06:24 PM                     I never heard of any 70mm prints of that title  |  IP: Logged Michael Coate Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1904 From: Los Angeles, California Registered: Feb 2001 posted 03-24-2015 06:44 PM                     quote: Gordon I never heard of any 70mm prints of that title Carr & Hayes claim there were 70mm prints in the United States...but we all know how accurate their book has proven to be. I've never come across any evidence to substantiate their claim. On the other hand, one cannot prove a negative.... And...Ray Harryhausen mentioned in an interview that he believed 70mm prints were made for some European bookings (which, if true, could mean any number of things in regard to the audio).  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 03-25-2015 11:52 AM                        As Steve G. knows: sometimes only one 70mm print was struck for a particular cinema. About 1979 I saw a kung-fu one-week-only print at the Uptown. 70mm-mono just for them.  |  IP: Logged Mitchell Dvoskin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1869 From: West Milford, NJ, USA Registered: Jan 2001 posted 03-25-2015 02:22 PM                     Quite honestly, I was not aware of a 70mm release for First Men In The Moon. The IMDB is where I found out it happened, although admittedly the IMDB is not always the most reliable source of information.  |  IP: Logged Stephan Shelley Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 854 From: castro valley, CA, usa Registered: Nov 2014 posted 03-25-2015 04:29 PM                     Terry Inherent Vice is a DTS 5.1 mix on 70mm. Only 3 screen channels. I will have to double check the next time I am doing service at the Castro but I don't think they have L & R extra.  |  IP: Logged Terry Monohan Master Film Handler Posts: 379 From: San Francisco CA USA Registered: May 2014 posted 03-25-2015 06:09 PM                      |  IP: Logged Terry Monohan Master Film Handler Posts: 379 From: San Francisco CA USA Registered: May 2014 posted 03-25-2015 06:10 PM                     Stephan***Thank's for your info. Next time you do a mtc/service call at the old Castro Theatre can you please turn UP the surround speakers on the side and back walls. I saw Inherent last night and the surrounds were almost silent, no split surround. This is mostly the case every time I see a stereo movie at the Castro. I saw this same movie in DCP at the Century 9 and It had plenty of surround. The stage speakers are so bad It was hard to hear the voices good, no high pitch and the base is not good. Thanks  |  IP: Logged

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