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» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » 1993-94 DTS audio?? (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4 
 
Author Topic: 1993-94 DTS audio??
Shawn Arndt
Film Handler

Posts: 37
From: South Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted 11-28-2012 09:26 AM      Profile for Shawn Arndt   Author's Homepage   Email Shawn Arndt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've got a question. I've got a DTS-6D and was trying to play Jurassic Park & Star Trek: Generations. I had some issue. I then used a Winamp plug-in to check them out and it came back "Unknown AUD File". I do have the v1.46 updated BIOS.

Were the early discs just stereo tracks compared to the 5.1 on the later discs for these movies or is it something else?

Thanks.....

[Smile]

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10609
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 11-28-2012 10:09 AM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A few hundred of the first DTS systems sold were of the "DTS-S" variety, units that could be dropped into an existing stereo-optical sound system. When Jurassic Park was first released DTS-6 systems cost only $3500 and the DTS-S units cost only $2500. DTS-S was phased out in 1994. Everything went to DTS-6 only after that.

Given Star Trek: Generations was a summer 1994 release, I don't know if that movie had a mix of DTS-6 and DTS-S CD-ROM discs.

I don't know if a 3-drive DTS-6D has any compatibility issues with playing DTS-S discs. It wouldn't surprise me if it did, given the DTS-S stereo format was eliminated before the DTS-6D was introduced.

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Peter Hall
Master Film Handler

Posts: 302
From: London, UK
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 11-28-2012 10:42 AM      Profile for Peter Hall   Author's Homepage   Email Peter Hall   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi
The DTS-S units used different disks to the 6 channel ones - these were usually marked DTS-Stereo. The playback units had only one disk drive and the 2 channel playback card - the 6 channel output card was an upgrade, as was the extra disk drive. Initially we installed both the 6 chl and 2 chl cabling on 6 channel units, then stopped bothering with the 2 channnel (which was a pain - it needed A type NR plus a switch to projector 2). The Mask, Jurrasic Park and a few others were released in DTS 2 channel, it was quickly dropped. We upgraded all the UK units to 6 track - I think about 80 units, mainly UCI. I have a couple of 6 channel units and some DTS6Ds taking up shelf space - open to offers !

Cheers

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

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From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004


 - posted 11-28-2012 12:53 PM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jurassic Park - being the first with DTS in 1993, was four channel only along with their players. By the next year, DTS made the revision on the players for six channel playback. Early DTS-6 units had twin spin, caddie drives installed and were workhorses in themselves.

Any computer can read the content on the DTS discs since the content is MSDOS based ...

Plain DOS or Windows Explorer can see the content on the discs.

The players used ix86 processors and momboards - DTS-6 used a 386 processor, and the 6D used 486sx25 processors.

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Shawn Arndt
Film Handler

Posts: 37
From: South Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted 11-28-2012 01:14 PM      Profile for Shawn Arndt   Author's Homepage   Email Shawn Arndt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow, nice to see the responses, thanks.

I did drop the discs into a Windows laptop. When I use the "plug-in" for Winamp to check play it said "Unkown AUD File" and they wouldn't play. Any other .AUD file I checked was at least playable....these 2 movies were not.

Is there any way to find out more about DTS-S? I've done some searching and there isn't a whole lot out there that helps explain how to handle it.

And again, thanks for the replies....I like learning how this stuff works ..... makes it easier to deal with issues as they arise.

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4242
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 11-28-2012 01:34 PM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Monte L Fullmer
Jurassic Park - being the first with DTS in 1993, was four channel only along with their players.
Is Monte right?

My memory may be off, but I kinda recall that DTS offered 6-channels with the initial "Jurassic Park" rollout. Many theatres advertised DTS 6-Track playback (and I'm pretty sure that's how I saw/heard it in 1993).

Some other cinemas advertised "DTS Stereo" which was vague, since it wasn't clear if they were playing the 2-Track disc (matrix decoded or not), or the analog-optical track, which wasn't officially a Dolby track (even though it used A-Type NR.)

My very first DTS players had "check boxes" on the packaging to indicate "Stereo" or "6-Track" -- and the manuals also specified that they were for the 6-Track players.

I recently ran an archival print of Jurassic Park -- and it came with both sets of discs -- "DTS Stereo" and "DTS 6-Track"

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Shawn Arndt
Film Handler

Posts: 37
From: South Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted 11-28-2012 02:23 PM      Profile for Shawn Arndt   Author's Homepage   Email Shawn Arndt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I believe I saw it mentioned in a thread here that Lt/Rt is decoded to LCRS which would mean it's analog audio? I see Manny mentions that there is 6-Track Jurassic Park audio....would Generations have a 6-Track variation as well?

Since the discs I got were kindly copied and sent to me I can only guess that by what I've learned so far, I probably have the DTS-S versions. At this point the only way for me to know for sure would be to take a file and decode it properly to wav format and play it through Windows.

Would anyone with the 6-Track discs have extras they'd be willing to part with?

It's amazing to find how much there is to learn about stuff like this. Thanks for everyone being so helpful.

Shawn

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4242
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 11-28-2012 04:27 PM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The DTS recordings are digital. Depending on your player and processor, the DTS output might be analog or digital.

For instance, my original DTS-6 players output analog to the Smart IIB and Dolby CP-45 processors, but a digital connection was possible to the Smart MOD IIC. Connection to the "Film" input of a DMA8plus processor would also be analog.

Even though DTS-Stereo (2-track) still needed to be Lt/Rt decoded, one would have noticed improvements in: signal-to-noise, dynamic range, frequency response, and perfect "azimuth" -- as compared to analog-optical. Furthermore, splices or other print damage would have had no degrading effect on the soundtrack.

My experience with copied DTS discs is that they're hit-or-miss -- sometimes they play just fine, and sometimes they don't. For example, earlier this year I received an Italian film with DTS discs containing the English dubbed version of the soundtrack -- those discs were useless. They wouldn't even load. [This wasn't the end of the world for us, because we really wanted the Italian dialogue (the SR-D track) for the actual screening anyway, but I was hoping to test out my DTS player.]

Back in the day, when I was running lots of first-run stuff, it wasn't too difficult to phone the distributor -- or even the depot -- and request a set of "chaser" discs. Not sure what happens when a repertory title doesn't include the discs.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 11-28-2012 05:04 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The DTS STEREO was a LtRt track that was fed through the Projector 2 optical preamp
JP was available in both version as was one or two more movies
There was a issue with the NR encoding on the tracks since it played through the cinemas NR cards

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

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From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
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 - posted 11-28-2012 05:09 PM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Shawn Arndt
I did drop the discs into a Windows laptop. When I use the "plug-in" for Winamp to check play it said "Unkown AUD File" and they wouldn't play.
To my knowledge, there is no general player application for DTS cinema files.

You sometimes come across DTS files and the like, but they are not of the cinema DTS type.

Just because their extension is *.AUD doesn't mean it is the same file format as the WINAMP *.AUD format.

- Carsten

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Shawn Arndt
Film Handler

Posts: 37
From: South Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted 11-28-2012 05:55 PM      Profile for Shawn Arndt   Author's Homepage   Email Shawn Arndt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Carsten Kurz
To my knowledge, there is no general player application for DTS cinema files.

You sometimes come across DTS files and the like, but they are not of the cinema DTS type.

Just because their extension is *.AUD doesn't mean it is the same file format as the WINAMP *.AUD format.

- Carsten

Carsten,

These weren't files I just found somewhere or files that were left on my doorstep from some anonymous secret delivery person during the cover of dark. They were copies of DTS cinema discs that I received from someone kind enough to help me out. I'm not trying to be mean....but it would probably help if you read the entire thread before responding.

Thanks

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Daniel Schulz
Master Film Handler

Posts: 359
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2003


 - posted 11-28-2012 06:15 PM      Profile for Daniel Schulz   Author's Homepage   Email Daniel Schulz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There was a slight change made to the file formats immediately after Jurassic Park to correct a few technical issues and update the .exe to support new CD drive hardware. The very first run of Jurassic Park discs do not play back in modern DTS and Datasat hardware for this reason (we have of course since then made new Jurassic Park discs). I'm not positive, but this may be why the oldest discs are not playable using the Winamp plugin.

The collective memory on the board with respect to 6-track vs Stereo is correct: Jurassic Park had both mixes available. There was a 5.1 soundtrack, and also a DTS-S version available, which was a digital Lt/Rt. The player output 2 channels, which then needed to be matrix decoded back to the LCRS.

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

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From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005


 - posted 11-28-2012 06:18 PM      Profile for Louis Bornwasser   Author's Homepage   Email Louis Bornwasser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My customer, National Amusements, launched dts with 6 track Jurassic Park. They only bought 1 dts 2 channel and it was quickly upgraded. (Then the entire curcuit went to Dolby Digital with basement readers.) Louis

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Shawn Arndt
Film Handler

Posts: 37
From: South Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted 11-28-2012 06:29 PM      Profile for Shawn Arndt   Author's Homepage   Email Shawn Arndt   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Daniel Schulz
There was a slight change made to the file formats immediately after Jurassic Park to correct a few technical issues and update the .exe to support new CD drive hardware. The very first run of Jurassic Park discs do not play back in modern DTS and Datasat hardware for this reason (we have of course since then made new Jurassic Park discs). I'm not positive, but this may be why the oldest discs are not playable using the Winamp plugin.

The collective memory on the board with respect to 6-track vs Stereo is correct: Jurassic Park had both mixes available. There was a 5.1 soundtrack, and also a DTS-S version available, which was a digital Lt/Rt. The player output 2 channels, which then needed to be matrix decoded back to the LCRS.

I had read about the plug-in here so I went searching...just to test the files out. Apparently both the JP & Generations discs I have are probably the older DTS-S. I will search out the 6-Track discs.

[Smile] Shawn

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 3490
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009


 - posted 11-28-2012 07:18 PM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Shawn - don't know how to make my point clear - to my knowledge, there is no WINAMP Plugin or any other media player application to play original cinema dts files - no matter wether it is the later dts 6 channel or dts-s format. You can browse and copy the files, that's it.

DTS consumer format or Winamp AUD files are a completely different species, so I consider it completely normal that Winamp can not read these AUD files from dts cinema discs.

You need the proper dts hardware player and the necessary timecode/reader in order to play DTS discs. A windows laptop can not do it. Which 'the plugin' do you mean? The more common Winamp AUD format is a game music format.

DTS stereo (not DTS-S) was an analog optical format compatible with Dolby SR. It's only original intention was to have an optical fallback format for digital DTS, without the need for a proper Dolby licensed SR track. With the later common combo DD, DTS,SDDS, and SR prints, there was no need for a dedicated analog DTS fallback format anymore, and they gave up on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTS_(sound_system)

- Carsten

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