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Author Topic: Particle transfer roller effectiveness Adam Ladds Film Handler Posts: 7 From: South Kensington, London, UK Registered: Feb 2012 posted 11-04-2012 09:55 AM                        Hi all. We run an entirely second-run cinema in the heart of London, UK. This obviously means we get prints which have been mis-handled, poorly broken down etc. We sometimes notice that some of the dirt and detritus on the film is things like bits of chinagraph pencil, the odd splicing tape "square" etc. Would it be worth investing in a set of particle transfer rollers to clean up our film or aren't they particularly effective at that? (I understand that it won't do anything for the occasional scratched print we encounter.) Thanks!  |  IP: Logged Jake Spell Master Film Handler Posts: 294 From: Johns Island SC Registered: May 2009 posted 11-04-2012 10:53 AM                     Theres a review here on just how bad PTR rollers suck. Iv had great luck with film gaurd cleaning, lubricating and repairing minor scratches.  |  IP: Logged Christian Appelt Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 505 From: Frankfurt, Germany Registered: Dec 2001 posted 11-04-2012 11:27 AM                     A Kelmar-type cleaner with FilmGuard will help enormously. You also could get a Kinoton/Retheto wet cleaner, it can be used with any suitable film cleaner or simple isopropane alcohol. The unit mounts on the projector or between platter and projector. Don't know whether Kinoton still sells it, but Sondor has a used one on their sales list for 50 swiss francs (about 34 GBP). Sondor.ch I use the Kinoton/Retheto cleaner with microfibre plush which is soft enough to take up small particles. Very little cleaning fluid is needed because of the special construction. If you run the same prints often, go with the Kelmar/FilmGuard solution. If you have to show different prints once or twice only, I'd recommend the Kinoton cleaner because FG needs one or two runs to work best. PTRs won't help in projection because there is more dirt on a used 35mm print than they can take, the place for PTRs is in printing, scanning and telecine operation to remove the last dust particles which may have escaped the previous negative cleaning.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-04-2012 01:34 PM                     We use PTRs on our 70mm at the TREC center. In this case, they are needed to keep the film clean BUT the film is pretty clean to start. If the film was dirty when we got it, the PTRs would be swamped with dust and dirt. They would stop working part way through the film. PTRs are for maintaining prints that are already in good condition but don't work on film that is dirty or damaged. As others have said, a Kelmar (or other make) of film cleaner combined with FilmGuard is the right tool for this job.  |  IP: Logged Bajsic Bojan Expert Film Handler Posts: 190 From: Ljubljana, Si, Eu Registered: Aug 2008 posted 11-04-2012 02:32 PM                     for 35mm use i only found it "convenient" in situations when you have: - changeover booth and - 4 sets of rollers and - you clean/rinse them every reel and - a decent enough projectionist to do the above. Otherwise they do more harm than good.  |  IP: Logged Mark Hajducki Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 500 From: Edinburgh, UK Registered: May 2003 posted 11-04-2012 03:24 PM                     PTRs quickly become saturated and then just move the dirt about. I found that using PTRs (with a long play system) resulted in worse prints than using nothing.  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 11-04-2012 04:48 PM                        Pretend you have: 1. 6 cats, longhair 2. 1 used lint roller. Hopeless, right?  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 11-04-2012 06:21 PM                     PTR = transfers particles from the front of the roll to the rear of the roll. Kelmars units are tons better.  |  IP: Logged Cameron Glendinning Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 845 From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia Registered: Dec 2005 posted 11-04-2012 06:23 PM                     Ive used PTR's and I have used Film Guard, Film Guard is much better for use in rep cinemas as it can fill in light base scratches and also improves the picture overall including colour. We used it on a beat up 60's print of "Thunderbirds Are Go" many years ago and after a couple of runs it was looking near new. Brad Miller's invention is brilliant!  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 11-04-2012 09:08 PM                        quote: Louis Bornwasser Pretend you have: 1. 6 cats, longhair 2. 1 used lint roller. Hopeless, right? That really says it all. I wish I had thought of this when I wrote that review a billion years ago.  |  IP: Logged John Wilson Film God Posts: 5438 From: Sydney, Australia. Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-05-2012 05:51 AM                     Lol @ Louis. Brilliant! Save your money if you intend to buy PTR's.  |  IP: Logged Adam Ladds Film Handler Posts: 7 From: South Kensington, London, UK Registered: Feb 2012 posted 11-05-2012 06:04 AM                        Thanks for the insight! We usually run films for a couple of showings at most (or in the case of special events, just once in addition to previewing) so I'll have a look at a Kinoton/Retheto wet cleaner; especially since it's got a lower upfront cost than many of the other options!  |  IP: Logged John Wilson Film God Posts: 5438 From: Sydney, Australia. Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-05-2012 06:24 AM                     Add Filmguard and all your worries are over.  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-05-2012 09:47 AM                        Particle Transfer Rollers only do what the name says. It transfers particles. It won't take away the real dirt that is grease or adhesive based, i.e., most of what you see on the screen marring the picture. PTRs are useless against things like finger prints, adhesive residue or grease pencil marks. For that you need a solvent. So they only remove particles that are only adhering to the print by static electricity; if the particles are held there by their own adhesive properties of chemical composition, like finger prints or china pencil or white-out, they will just laugh at being tickled by a passing PTR roller. The PTR is also true to its "transferring" function;" it almost always transfers the particles to some other part of the print once the roller gets dirty which, if you are lucky won't be before the end of the first reel. But for all the faults of the PTR, it's concept was laudable and it does work if you were running 2000ft reels of from-the-lab new prints in changeover and have the time and inclination to wash the PTRs after every reel or if you had a few dozen of them at the ready that you could swap out after each reel and then wash at the end of the night. That said, any discussion of PTRs does remind me of one of this boards most knowledgeable and generous and kind member/contributors, the late John Film-Done-Right Pytlak, who was instrumental in their invention an availablility -- an early attempt to address the problem of dirty prints which was at the time escalating exponentially in exhibition and to which he called to attention of the whole industry with this effort. We remember him here fondly; a tip of the hat to John.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 11-06-2012 01:35 PM                     I use them...sometimes. I don't bother using PTR's on "hopeless" prints -- because I agree with everything that was said about that. (Especially Frank Angel's comments.) Also, PTR's work best with a dry print. So if you have a print that still has a coating of liquid cleaner (like FilmGuard) on it, you're just going to end up with slippery PTR's if you use them on that print. However -- IF you are running a clean, dry print -- IF you are projecting via changeovers -- and IF you will clean or swap out the used PTR's after each and every reel -- they can aid in keeping a clean, dry print looking clean -- basically, they will prevent new dust from accumulating on the print. The "nutshell" version is -- In a repertory situation, most prints won't benefit from PTR's. While FilmGuard is a fine product, you need to know that certain archives will not permit you to apply ANY liquid cleaner to their prints. So it's important to familiarize yourself with the rules/expectation of each particular lender. I also don't use PTR's on old, brittle prints, because it's possible to separate the emulsion layer completely from the base. They make "less sticky" (matte) rollers, but I still don't use those on old prints. The benefit is insignificant, compared to the risk.  |  IP: Logged

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