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This topic comprises 2 pages: 1 2
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Author
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Topic: Aging Theater Sound/Film/Calibraton Questions
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Wes Wakefield
Film Handler
Posts: 4
From: Sterling, VA, USA
Registered: Nov 2011
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posted 11-27-2011 04:46 PM
Hello! I'm a pro audio guy/consultant (mostly live) with an electrical engineering background and I've developed a relationship with a local 2 house theater that needs some serious help. Thanks to this forum and a couple of Syn-Aud-Con contacts, I've taken a crash course on theater sound and film projection, which I knew very little about before I was asked to help with this install.
The situation is kind of weird. The owner of the theater (the business) actually rents the building from a guy that's pretty cheap. I don't know the in's and out's of the contract, but apparently anything that's "bolted down" belongs to the landlord, including the projectors and the sound system. As such, my friend is hesitant to dump personal money into the infrastructure, and it's difficult to get money out of the landlord.
That being said, I'm pretty much donating my time to help them get the system in some sort of workable shape, as they have been losing customers due to hums/buzzes, etc. Call me a glutton for punishment; I've really enjoyed learning about the technical side of the theater world...
On to the issues at hand. The system is a hodge-podge of gear:
- Smaart IIB processors
- one house has a Smaart active crossover, the other has a JBL 2 way speaker level passive crossover that someone stuck in line,
- Kintek KT-1045 monitor/exciters,
- Kintek surrounds (unknown model #)in both houses
- Altec A5 VOTT Center in one house with a blown 288-16G compression driver (haven't been behind the screen in the other)
- Surround/Center setup. No LR.
- Smaart amplifiers, one with blown/missing fuse. I don't know if it's operational or not with a fuse.
- Balco 5 platter setup, 1.5 to 2 of which have problems
- Universal EPRAD lamp-houses
- Century projectors
- Orcon VA-101 Automation
Questions:
- Where's the best place to source a replacement diaphragm for old Altec speakers?
- There is a N-500-F Altec crossover that has been bypassed by some previous person. Is it worth certifying it and putting it back in line instead of the Smaart crossover/JBL pos?
- I found the Altec spec sheets. Anyone have anything on the Kintek 1045 monitors? I'd love to have a pinout/schematic? (found the film-tech warehouse, but nothing for the 1045 listed)
- What is an exciter? Is it just what provides the voltage for the soundhead? I haven't been able to find a good explanation...
- I've seen Dolby CP-50/55/65's on ebay, the 50's sometimes as low as $200. Would the 50's be a good replacement for the Smaart IIb's? I haven't had the time to dig through the Dolby manuals to match spec's/capabilities; I would appreciate some good advice here
- What about soundheads? I can't find any model information on the ones installed. One is newer than the other; they're both red LED soundheads, but one has an incandescent lamp mounted behind the LED.
- There's an inline amplifier inbetween the soundhead and one of the exciters
- Anyone in the Washington DC area with calibration film that could possibly help with an A/B-chain calibration? I have my Rational Acoustic Smaart 7 RTA/FFT, oscilloscope, etc, but I don't have any of the calibration film...
- Where can I source used (cheap!) replacements for the kintek's? The fader's are scratchy and the wiring on the back is spliced up pretty bad. I've been told they're better suited for doorstops anyway...
- Are the Smaart TA series amps decent? I'll break into the broken ones and see if I can't fix them, but if they're not worth having I won't waste too much of my time...
- I've seen Dolby CP-50/55/65's on ebay, the 50's sometimes as low as $200. Would the 50's be a good replacement for the Smaart IIb's? I haven't had the time to dig through the Dolby manuals to match spec's/capabilities; I would appreciate some good advice here
- As the Smaart proc's don't have a C/Surr setting, I've seen a mod of a resistive summing circuit to combine the LRC and the L/Surr and R/Surr. It was referenced for a dolby processor though; I don't know the output impedance of the Smaart Processor, but any reason it won't work here?
- Anyone in the Washington DC area with calibration film that could possibly help with an A/B-chain calibration? I have my Rational Acoustic Smaart 7 RTA/FFT, oscilloscope, etc, but I don't have any calibration film...
- Anyone dumping any old gear/speakers in their move to digital that would like to donate to a historic local theater?
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I'd like to take care of the buzzes, fix the current speakers and get workable calibrated audio in both houses in the cheapest possible way. It doesn't have to be amazing detailed QSC/Meyer sound, it just needs to be watchable without being distracting. Better sound/picture = more customers = more $$$ to fix the stuff that needs to be fixed. I know the film days are at their end, and my friend (the owner) knows that, but he wants to ride the train as long as he can to give him time to work out his issues with the landlord before investing the cash for digital.
Feel free to point me to threads or resources in case I missed something in my searches. Thanks in advance for any help/advice you can give!
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 11-27-2011 05:32 PM
Hi Wes and welcome. Is your friend running 1st run titles, 2nd run or retrospective or a mix? If he is trying to make his way in the business with a twin running 1st run, competing with the big chain multiplexes at their game will be a daunting, up-hill battle. Even if he is running classic titles as an art-house fighting for a niche market, it will still be extremely difficult; the demise of many an art house stand as proof of how difficult it really is.
He certainly is wise not to pour money into someone else's aging film equipment. But the real issue here is, how long will he even be able to operate sticking with a format that will soon be Gone With The Wind? Just read the discussions on this forum that outline the demise of print availability and the problems some exhibitors are already facing trying to get one's hands on prints even though they are still being produced.
If he is running off the break (2nd run), many of those theatres that were getting prints from the first run houses, now that so many of those plexes have converted to digital, prints that normally would have been cycled from them are now no longer available to the smaller subrun exhibitors, or they may have to foot much higher shipping costs from farther distances or not get prints at all. It is just this kind of marginal operation that digital has will shutter first.
Unfortunately he will be facing extinction unless he has the pockets to invest in digital, and even then, everything else will have to be upgraded as well. For an exhibitor, even one showing 2nd run films, who is still only offering a presentation with center/surround sound, it would probably be a better idea if he invested whatever capital he has in a fast food franchise or some business other than cinema exhibition.
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Wes Wakefield
Film Handler
Posts: 4
From: Sterling, VA, USA
Registered: Nov 2011
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posted 11-27-2011 06:13 PM
Jake, thanks for the link and the info!
Frank, thanks for the welcome. Dave is running mostly 1st run and has done ok, as it's in a more rural community. He usually has a kids film along with a more adult oriented release; Films like Harry Potter sell out, and the kids movies are generally well attended. He also supplements it with live comedy shows, small musical acts, etc, which have done well. I don't think it's super profitable (if at all?) but he enjoys it and seems to want to keep doing it.
I agree that he's in trouble if he wants to do this for much longer, but that's not my choice, lol. I'm just making sure he knows his options, and if I can get him up and running for a few hundred bucks or so it will hopefully get him through the next year or so. (I read somewhere that 2015 is the cutoff/death of film. Is that accurate?)
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Scott Norwood
Film God
Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 11-27-2011 06:34 PM
quote: Wes Wakefield
Where's the best place to source a replacement diaphragm for old Altec speakers?
Cardinal Sound & Motion Picture should have these. There may be other sources as well.
quote: Wes Wakefield
There is a N-500-F Altec crossover that has been bypassed by some previous person. Is it worth certifying it and putting it back in line instead of the Smaart crossover/JBL pos?
Most cinema systems now use active crossovers. If you need a passive crossover, you could probably do better than the N500 series. I have yet to find any sound guys who think that the N500 is any good.
quote: Wes Wakefield
I found the Altec spec sheets. Anyone have anything on the Kintek 1045 monitors? I'd love to have a pinout/schematic?
No idea. Kintek is out of business and has been for some time. Kelmar, Ultra-Stereo (USL), and QSC all make cinema monitors if you want to replace the Kintek units.
quote: Wes Wakefield
What is an exciter? Is it just what provides the voltage for the soundhead? I haven't been able to find a good explanation...
It is a smallish light bulb (typically with a bayonet-style base) that is installed in the soundhead to reproduce optical film sound. Light from the exciter lamp shines through a slit lens, then through the film, and is read by a solar cell on the opposite side of the film. As mentioned above, white-light exciter lamps do not work well with the cyan-dye tracks that are found on most modern (last five years or so) color prints. You are unlikely to find them in a 35mm projector in a theatre that is open and has been running current films. Most likely, the system has been replaced with an LED reverse-scan system (or a Jaxlight or some other similar device). Note that 16mm projectors do still use exciter lamps.
Note that the exciter power supply may still be in use to power the LED system. If not, it will have its own power supply, which may be attached to or inside the projector base or even a wall-wart power supply.
quote: Wes Wakefield
I've seen Dolby CP-50/55/65's on ebay, the 50's sometimes as low as $200. Would the 50's be a good replacement for the Smaart IIb's? I haven't had the time to dig through the Dolby manuals to match spec's/capabilities; I would appreciate some good advice here
If you are only reproducing optical film sound, then I think that the best deal going is the CP65. These are much newer than the CP50 and go for about $500 on Ebay. Get one with 2x cat. 300 or cat. 350 cards (in addition to the cat. 222). Avoid the ones with the cat. 222 "SR/A" combo card. Try to get a spare preamp card (cat. 240A).
These sound good and can reproduce all current optical sound formats (mono, Dolby A, and Dolby SR).
If you want something that is a bit more future-proof and is still manufactured and supported by Dolby, the CP650 would be the best choice. These come in several variants, so be sure to know what you are buying.
quote: Wes Wakefield
What about soundheads? I can't find any model information on the ones installed. One is newer than the other; they're both red LED soundheads, but one has an incandescent lamp mounted behind the LED.
For your purposes, the actual soundhead model does not really matter. You need to find out what the LED reader is and get the manual for that. Basically, you get low-level (mic-level, roughly) analog left/right out of the LED reader, and that goes to the preamp card in the processor. The Dolby processor manuals cover the alignment procedure.
quote: Wes Wakefield
Anyone in the Washington DC area with calibration film that could possibly help with an A/B-chain calibration?
Any cinema equipment dealer should carry these. You need buzz-track, left/right (crosstalk), Dolby cat. 69T and Dolby cat. 69P, as a minimum for optical alignment.
For the Dolby processors (pre-CP500/CP650), you will also need a pink-noise generator (cat. 85) and an EQ card extender (cat. 67).
quote: Wes Wakefield
Are the Smaart TA series amps decent?
I don't know what these are, but consider that Smart is out of business now. They are probably candidates for an upgrade. Most cinemas use QSCs; some use Crown. A few use some other brand. The easiest system to install is probably the QSC DCM monitor/crossover with DCA amps, which takes care of your monitor and crossover issues all at the same time. I'm not a huge fan of the DCM thing personally, but it does seem to be an easy way to solve a number of problems at the same time. If you are buying used amplifiers, the older QSC MX series and current-model DCA series are reliable and sound good.
Regarding the center/surround thing: not sure on summing L/C/R, but you only have one mono surround channel (S) for optical, anyway, so there is no need to worry about combining LS and RS unless you are doing digital sound.
Good luck with the upgrades; it sounds like fun. If I were nearby, I would enjoy helping with the process. It can be very satisfying to make improvements to older theatres that even "normal" patrons notice and comment about to the owner.
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 11-27-2011 06:41 PM
Wes, I applaud anyone who does this as a labor of love and is making it work, and I sure don't want to rain on his parade -- I have been doing the labor of love thing for my whole adult life. Most mom and pop operations and especially Drive-ins have done so, many successfully for decades and survived the competition from video and the shrinking release window and the big chain multiplexes, but the conversion to digital may be too difficult an obstacle to overcome. Simply make it on love alone just won't be enough. I hope your friend can make it work for as long as the stars are aligned.
2015? Sure you will hear dates thrown around -- everyone under the sun seems to know a date, but in reality, there has not been any date-certain stated by any studio, but the rumblings are getting louder and louder and it doesn't take a soothsayer to know that we are in The End Times. Many think sooner even than 2015.
Fox sent a letter around that reiterated the imminent end of releasing their product on film, but again, no specific date was given. I believe the NATO head honcho actually spoke the words "Two Thousand and Thirteen," and everyone started saying that was it, but then, he's not a film studio.
Whenever the date is, print scarcities have already surfaced; I have heard Canadian Drive-in owners saying that since the multiplex close to them converted to digital and it was from there that they usually got their prints, they are getting squeezed out of some tiles because the distributor claims lack of an available print. If this is a trend that will spread and show its face down here, it's not a good one sign.
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Wes Wakefield
Film Handler
Posts: 4
From: Sterling, VA, USA
Registered: Nov 2011
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posted 11-27-2011 07:23 PM
Louis, thanks for the heads up on the Smaart amps. If it's an easy /cheap fix I'll fix it. If not, it's out with the trash. After all, working amp > non-working amp. I'll also send Steve a message...
Scott: wow. Thanks for all the great info. I'll see about the possibility of springing for a couple CP65's. I'm probably going to get all the loudspeakers working, then assess the amps. Thankfully, I'm very familiar with the major pro audio amp manufacturers and am comfortable with DSP/crossovers, etc. I've never worked with the DCA/DCM series, but I do have powerlite's/RMX's/etc in several of my installations at my day job. On a side note, I got a tour of the QSC facility last spring and got a demo of their theater room; lots of fun...
Frank, I'm so torn with trying not to rain on his parade either. I hate to see a good guy continue to throw money at a potentially dying business. I've only gotten to know Dave over the past few months (a good friend of mine used to be a manager at the theater and introduced me) and I'm not sure what his long term plan is. I know he rented the place in 2008 with the intention of turning it into a live venue and ended up learning how/continuing to run film. I personally love the little theaters and would love to see my money stay with the local guys; that's why I'm working for cheap.
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Oscar Neundorfer
Master Film Handler
Posts: 275
From: Senoia, GA
Registered: May 2000
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posted 11-29-2011 11:23 AM
quote:
Louis Bornwasswer:
Speaking to your expertise, you will find the Smart amps pretty nasty; made by Radio Shack suppliers in the Orient. Second worst amp I have ever checked for THD.
Ok, let's review this a bit, and please remember I am going from some very old memories dating back to the early 1980s. If there was anything before my time at SMART, then I am not aware of it. If there were any amps from Radio Shack suppliers, I never saw one, and I was there for over 21 years.
The early SMART amps, the TA120 (single channel) and TA240 (dual channel), used amplifier modules made by a UK company called ILP. These were not from a Radio Shack supplier in the Orient. If I recall correctly, there was also a 4 channel version, the TA480 (big mistake). Louis is correct that they were pretty nasty regarding THD. These can be identified by the modules on the back of the chassis. The amp was not very deep, maybe about 6 inches.
Not too long after I went to work for SMART in 1983, SMART licensed the Hafler MOSFET design. We then used these Hafler modules on our amps. These modules were mounted on the sides of the chassis, and the amplifier depth was maybe 11 inches, if I recall correctly. These amplifiers were excellent. The distortion was very low, the sound quality was very good, and they were fairly reliable except for two issues: connectors and pots. Each amp module connected internally through a 9 pin Molex connector that would sometimes not make good connection. The reasons for the poor connection were either oxidized pins and sleeves in the connector or poor crimping of the wires in the pins or sleeves. These issues are easily fixed if you know what to look for. Also sometimes the input level pots would oxidize a bit and need to be cleaned with contact cleaner. One shortcoming of these amps was their power output which was 120W into 8 Ohms and 180W into 4 Ohms. In many cases this was enough, but sometimes it was not.
Unfortunately the TA240 dual channel amp kept the same name even with the new Hafler Modules. It was confusing. Later the name was changed to TA242. I can't recall anything about the name of the TA120.
Later on we used essentially the same Hafler design in our audiophile amplifier line which got very good reviews from magazines such as Stereophile, Absolute Sound, and Widescreen Review, as well as some online magazines such as Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity, Enjoy the Music, and AudAud. You can check it out here: SMART Audiophile Amplifier
Later on, SMART began buying amplifiers from AB International and re-branding them. These amps were also pretty decent. I am not certain, but I believe we also bought and re-branded some amplifiers from QSC that were built in Hong Kong it seems. Unfortunately, it has been a long time and I cannot remember all the details.
So unless you have a very early SMART amplifier with the ILP modules, they are not all that bad. Louis, if you know some history that I don't know, please feel free to post it.
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