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Author Topic: Phantom Cue on trailer "The Grownups" Tom Egbert Film Handler Posts: 13 From: Victor, Idaho, USA Registered: Oct 2009 posted 06-12-2010 05:29 PM                        We have a strange thing happening that we have never had before. We have a phantom cue that occurs soon after the beginning of the trailer, "The Grownups". We have an FM-35. It is clean as brand new. We cleaned it thoroughly per the manufacturer's recommendation. When this phantom cue occurs, there is no red flash indicating that a cue was detected. At the end of this problem trailer, there is a foil cue signaling the beginning of the feature, but it gets ignored, luckily, because the phantom cue has already put us in "feature presentation" mode. I watched the foil go through in the right place for the cue detector to pick up, but there was no red flash. This behavior is baffling. Anyone know anything about this kind of thing happening?  |  IP: Logged Tom Egbert Film Handler Posts: 13 From: Victor, Idaho, USA Registered: Oct 2009 posted 06-12-2010 07:16 PM                        More information: The Grownups is a cue attached to Karate Kid. We have another place where we get a false cue sent to our automation from our FM-35 without any lights blinking near the end of the film. We carefully checked the film and there is absolutely no cue tape on the film. The film is pristine film. If film manufacturers are going to be making film like this that fools cue detectors, what needs to be done?  |  IP: Logged Sean McKinnon Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1712 From: Peabody Massachusetts Registered: Sep 2000 posted 06-12-2010 08:48 PM                        You say that the FM-35 is new how about the automation? What kind of automation are you using Ta-10?  |  IP: Logged Chris Slycord Film God Posts: 2986 From: 퍼항시, 경상푹도, South Korea Registered: Mar 2007 posted 06-12-2010 09:06 PM                     Is it possible that you've set this up such that one cue is read and then it goes into a countdown/delay before automatically doing another cue? That could explain the bizarre behavior, assuming that you've set it to do this countdown type cue at a time/position when you shouldn't have.  |  IP: Logged Tom Egbert Film Handler Posts: 13 From: Victor, Idaho, USA Registered: Oct 2009 posted 06-12-2010 10:49 PM                        We have been running fine since we opened in February until this film came along. Mark Gulbrandsen came and jump started us in February. One of the first things he did was clean our FM-35 and wire it up to our EPRAD Ultimation 2000. It is very reliable. We started having trouble with Karate Kid. What baffles us is that a signal gets sent to the automation in the same two places every time. There is no cue tape on the film and no detection lights flash on the FM-35 when these false cues are sent. We have removed the cue tape we put on because our automation only accepts four cues. These false cues are additive. We manually handle the lights and the sound where we need to, as in changing between mono and stereo or catching the lights and putting them back where they should be before people detect that something has happened unusual.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-12-2010 10:58 PM                     Try taking out that particular piece of film to see if the problem remains. Try that same piece of film in another machine. IF the problem moves to another machine THEN the problem is because of the film IF the problem still occurs in the suspect machine THEN the problem is because of something wrong in the suspect machine and not because of the film. IF the problem stops and doesn't appear in either machine. THEN you must have some sort of operator error that was causing it.  |  IP: Logged Tom Egbert Film Handler Posts: 13 From: Victor, Idaho, USA Registered: Oct 2009 posted 06-12-2010 11:21 PM                        Something is definitely screwy. I was just thinking that right after the first false cue, which was at the beginning of the trailer that came on the feature, we had placed our own cue tape about 30" before the feature presentation. That cue did not get read after the false cue occurred. I watched it go through, but the red cue detection light did not flash and the cue monitor did not increment the cues. We don't have any automatic cuing set up. I am going to have to think this on over some more. Hmmm  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 06-12-2010 11:34 PM                     Interesting. I assembled both of our "KK" prints at our 14 plex and while the build, I inspected the front of the features (since I had to add the feature cue for our 3Q Christie/SPECO failsafes to sense..) and noticed none of any of this incidental cuing situation here on the attached "Grownup" trailers.. Tom, was your print previously screened at another theatre as a sneak of sorts, for this where the possibility of a "dot cue" - a cue that was placed on the film made by a cueing machine that places a 'dot' of tin tape where it's needed. It looks like someone used a paper punch to make this 'dot' out of the foil - was placed on the print and why you're experiencing this issue. -Monte  |  IP: Logged Tom Egbert Film Handler Posts: 13 From: Victor, Idaho, USA Registered: Oct 2009 posted 06-13-2010 12:35 AM                        We looked very closely at the film for anything like that in these places, but nothing is there. Again, I need to emphasize, the red cue detection led does not flash when this false cue occurs. That is what is so baffling. But it is 100% reproducible in the same location every time. Other than the one that occurs right after "The Grownups" trailer, the other false cue occurs right after the winning kick at the end of the movie. Not knowing how the FM-35 is wired, I would think that any time a signal is sent to the automation, the same electrical impulse would trigger the red led to light. But this does not seem to be happening.  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 06-13-2010 12:52 AM                     I wonder then if you got a small section in that trailer and where the other insident is location if the print itself has a flaw to allow the cue reader to engage then.. What about the other films that you play there with, obviously, none of these occurances comes up?  |  IP: Logged Tom Egbert Film Handler Posts: 13 From: Victor, Idaho, USA Registered: Oct 2009 posted 06-13-2010 01:20 AM                        Now that you mention it, we started having trouble with cues when we were showing Shrek. Everything went normal as usual. In other words, the sound and the lights all behaved as usual, but when the film ran out of the projector, the alarm would sound. I never took the time to figure that one out. I just figured that the FM-35 probably needed cleaning or something. This dialog is good. It points to a problem that may not be print related, but is somehow triggered at certain places predictably.  |  IP: Logged Demetris Thoupis Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1240 From: Aradippou, Larnaca, Cyprus Registered: Apr 2001 posted 06-13-2010 01:31 AM                     After your standard cue passes stop the projector and wait as many seconds as the false cue supposedly happens. If the problem is replicated then is something in the automation. Demetris  |  IP: Logged Ian Parfrey Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1049 From: Imbil Australia 26 deg 27' 42.66" S 152 deg 42' 23.40" E Registered: Feb 2009 posted 06-13-2010 03:09 AM                     quote: Tom Egbert but is somehow triggered at certain places predictably. This line points to offset settings. Go through your automation settings and double check your offsets and see if there are any anomalies.  |  IP: Logged Michael Wheable Film Handler Posts: 5 From: Leamington Spa, England Registered: Aug 2005 posted 06-13-2010 03:27 AM                        Your FM35 is on the way out. Had one go a couple of years ago where half way through the film lights came up then few seconds later the show shut. Last bit of trouble we had was when another FM35 was on last legs, didn't like a particular advert as it went through sensor, look at the motion light as it goes through, but as we were about to go Digital it wasn't worth replacing. On automation board we disabled our J14, this bypassed the signal for the projector to stop. Yes, we were taking a chance if something else could go wrong but it was a temp measure  |  IP: Logged Sean McKinnon Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1712 From: Peabody Massachusetts Registered: Sep 2000 posted 06-13-2010 11:31 AM                        I am not familiar with the ultimation but I am wondering if it uses cam timers? Is it possible that a "Start" relay is getting stuck when you push the start button causing the cam timer to cycle more than once? That would explain why a cue is going off but no lights are showing in the FM-35. It would also explain why it happens in the same spot every show. If your automation uses the old style relays (not the newer little black chips) I would swap your "show start" (or whatever it's called) relay with another automation and see if the problems goes away or follows. Sometimes the action of moving the relay around will cause it to stop sticking. If you are uncomfortable removing the relay try tapping it with the non bristled end of a toothbrush or a pen.  |  IP: Logged

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