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This topic comprises 2 pages: 1 2
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Topic: Waltz With Bashir 25 f.p.s. ??
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Jim Bedford
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 597
From: Telluride, CO, USA (733 mi. WNW of Rockwall, TX but it seems much, much longer)
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 06-24-2009 08:10 PM
For some reason (perhaps someone across the pond can enlighten us) most European animation is produced at 25fps. As you note, only the most discerning ear or someone with a stopwatch could likely tell the difference.
From experience I can tell you that the filmmaker can tell the difference even though no one else can. If he's not in the house, run it at 24fps; if he is, get an Etrac or a really, really strong lock for the booth door.
It's the story that carries BASHIR, not the animation. Don't worry, the flatness doesn't get in the way and really enhances the story. It's a really good movie.
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Julio Roberto
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 938
From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2008
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posted 06-25-2009 02:43 AM
As we all know, a fair number of stuff outside the USA and Japan is done at 25fps, since it matches the way most people will see it and, if it needs to be shown at 24fps, it's usually no big deal, just slow it down a bit.
They may have re-adjusted the pitch during the film transfer to +2.085% (like 24.5fps) figuring they'll play it safe to those that were playing it 24 w/o digital pitch re-adjustment as well as 25. Thus, with approx. 2% analog off-pitch, it pbbly would go unnoticed to most, depending on the content.
Old indian film transfers are always incredible interesting as they often are, hmmmm, "challenged" ( ![[sex]](graemlins/sex.gif) -ed up). Here is one where they must have transfered it to 29.96 fps (from original 24 film), then to 25fps with a pulldown removal that must have been out of phase with the actual NTSC-rate pulldown, leaving a video which de-interlaced motion seems to fluctuate half-way between 23.97 and 29.96 playedback sped up by some 4%. The audio must had been set up to follow the frame in the time shifter, and well, it did try to keep up ![[Wink]](wink.gif) .
Still, if you weren't warned before hand, it may have looked half-decent to most. At least it did to the guy doing the transfer ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) . And remember we are talking about changes of up to 4fps in this video (30-24/2+4%), not just 1fps. That IS a lot. And it contains music and lyrics, which is usually more noticeable.
I have seen many screws-up during indian film transfers, but some are just ... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Our brains adjust better for this type of speed-variations than we think, even w/o the digital help.
After all, until recently all movies tranferred to TV/DVD are watched at slightly slowed and with un-even (pulldown) motion in some countries and sped up by 1fps in others, and only a few old farts like us ever notice or complain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeNoUggxxdM&fmt=22
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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today
Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99
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posted 06-25-2009 03:32 AM
quote: Bradzilla
You sure the pitch changes? You could be right, but I seem to recall just the speed changed.
That's what I would have thought, too. But I have done this. Granted, it doesn't take long for the audio to go bye-bye, but in that short time you can hear a clear pitch change. Also, if it were only the speed changing, we wouldn't have had that thread asking about wow in Dolby Digital as it bobbed up and down at the splices (on that particular member's reader) since it really wouldn't be noticeable. Maybe I'll take my camera to work tomorrow and record me doing this if I have time, and then post it here. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it. I only have 2 to build and 3 to break down.
John, you can do this, just shut off the analog LED if you can.
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John Hawkinson
Film God
Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 06-25-2009 12:00 PM
Joe and Louis are absolutely correct, pitch changes with both SRD and DTS, just like it does with analog sound, and I'd be stunned if it were different with SDDS.
Jim, you can't just "clock it out at the correct rate" -- if you did that, then you'd need to resync every once in a while (presumably every few seconds), and the periodic blip from resyncing would be really annoying, as would the lip sync delay you would get.
It's now possible for computers to pitch-correct speed adjusted audio, but this is a relatively new technology, and I don't think it works perfectly (especially with things that are not pure tones). But it certainly wasn't prevalent when the three digital sound systems were introduced, and they haven't changed the way they have been implemented. And it would take more horsepower than I think is available in digital sound decoders.
We ran Waltz with Bashir in 24fps, and I'm embarassed to admit I didn't notice the 25fps notation. It was absolutely fine.
I'll second Jim's comment about filmmakers, though, I've had that happen.
--jhawk
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