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Author Topic: Cue marks: scribe circles or grease pencil? Paul Burt Film Handler Posts: 46 From: San Francisco, CA, United States Registered: Apr 2006 posted 05-11-2009 11:17 AM                     I work at a number of venues where 2000' changeovers are essential for various reasons. No problem, I've dome this for years, but there is a new aspect to this: fewer and fewer film have cue marks from the labs. Most European prints and virtually all Asian prints are now struck without cue marks. The question is, which is better for the print, scribing cue marks, or using grease pencil? At the last festival I worked I would say about 60% of the prints without lab cues came in with scribed circles and the rest with grease pencil cues. (Since we used platters at this festival it was irrelevant, I didn't have to add any cues, but at my next festival we do changeovers & I expect I'll have to add marks to at least some of the prints) Downsides: scribed cues can never be removed which may be a problem for future preservation. Grease pencil is sometimes too visible on the screen although it can be removed easily. Personally I prefer grease pencil cues but they can be almost invisible on dark scenes, and at one festival I work, films will be run in various venues and all the operators have to see them, not just me. How do the members here weigh in on this?  |  IP: Logged Damien Taylor Master Film Handler Posts: 493 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2007 posted 05-11-2009 11:31 AM                     I would take the opportunity to make the correct scribe cues first, hopefully before less experienced operators have a chance to add thousands of their own. Cues are barely noticeable on platter runs, and future changeover operators will thank you for making decent cues.  |  IP: Logged Mitchell Dvoskin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1869 From: West Milford, NJ, USA Registered: Jan 2001 posted 05-11-2009 12:17 PM                     What Damien said. Sooner or later, someone is going add cues in a destructive manner. Since you have a Clint Phare cue gizmo, use it to do it right. Ultimately it will save frame damage down the road.  |  IP: Logged Robert E. Allen Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1078 From: Checotah, Oklahoma Registered: Jul 2002 posted 05-11-2009 12:41 PM                     I've used both but prefer the scribe. Grease pencil, if not removed, will come off on the film wrapped over it. If you do use grease pencil make it a small mark not clear across the frame like I've seen some apparently half-blind operators do.  |  IP: Logged Jack Ondracek Film God Posts: 2348 From: Port Orchard, WA, USA Registered: Oct 2002 posted 05-11-2009 12:52 PM                        Personally, I never ever used a cue scribe. Back in my changeover days, that gadget, and exacto knives were used so much, some films looked pretty horrible. When I worked changeover booths in Seattle, some of the union guys used a technique I thought was pretty effective. We'd cut strips of masking tape... about 1/16 inch X the width of the tape... less than an inch, as I recall. Wrapping one of those strips around the edge of the film, at the frameline, causes a noticeable click when it runs through the gate... not unlike the old glue splices we used to use. We'd place the audible cues just before the visual one. It made finding dark cues much easier, because you knew it was coming right after the click(s). As I recall, we used 2 clicks for the motor cue (something like 8 frames apart), and one click at the changeover. Curtain cues were 3 clicks. I don't doubt that some here might recoil in offense that one would use a technique like this... but it worked back then, seemed to cause no damage, and the strips were easily removed when the time came. Maybe using the artists tape would be a good alternative?  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-11-2009 01:12 PM                        I don't believe in using shoe polish for reel end IDs, but how about a small strip of that "silver" sharpie ink along the side of the film at the appropriate spots? This would of course require decent booth lighting but you wouldn't have to mark the image area. The only downside I could see is, you might muck up the SDDS soundtrack but who's using that old thing any more?  |  IP: Logged Dick Prather Master Film Handler Posts: 259 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 05-11-2009 01:12 PM                     Jack, I remember them well. We used to call them clickers and knew they were from Seattle. They were glued small strips of film then. The only time I worked in Seattle was at the Aurora DI where they were also used to signal when to turn on the xenon lamp. They worked fine but made the film jump every time a click went through. Normally I removed them. The Clint Phare markers worked fine. Sometimes we put a small drop of opaque in the CP mark. Most booths had opaque to bloop the optical track with glue splices. I miss not seeing the ques on lots of DVD's. I think they should be left on. Dick  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 05-11-2009 02:43 PM                        "Blind man's cues" used at a drive in here with a 1500 foot throw. The valley fogged in too much to see a picture from the booth, but underneath the screen was still visible. (Booth located on top of hill at rear of drive in.) Louis  |  IP: Logged Tony Bandiera Jr Film God Posts: 3067 From: Moreland Idaho Registered: Apr 2004 posted 05-11-2009 03:38 PM                     Scribe cues at the proper locations, always!! Grease pencil cues, no matter how small will always look horrible on screen. You simply cannot make them the exact same size and placement so that they don't dance about during the four frames. And the scribe cue is smaller than any possible mark from a grease pencil that would be of any use. A properly scribed cue is NOT noticeable to the vast majority of audiences. (Over 90% of the audience at UC Irvine I've spoken with didn't even know we were running two projectors and never saw any cues..when they were properly placed and made. They DO notice the grease pencil cues though..every time.) quote: Jack Ondracek Back in my changeover days, that gadget, and exacto knives were used so much, some films looked pretty horrible. Jack, it's NOT the scribe that made it look so horrible, it is the incompetent boobs who added cues because they were too fucking stupid to learn how to do a properly timed changeover. It really annoys me when people say things like that when you yourself know it's not the scribe that made the problem. It's like those who say platters are harder on film than reel-to-reel..bullshit. I don't like the idea of the "Click" cues, as they will cause noticeable image jump and it would be possibly for the soundtrack to mask them. (You do changeovers with the monitor loud enough to hear the soundtrack, right? To avoid cutting off dialogue? ) quote: Jack Ondracek As I recall, we used 2 clicks for the motor cue (something like 8 frames apart), and one click at the changeover. Curtain cues were 3 clicks. So basically you had two film jumps at each motor cue and three at each curtain cue? And you thought that to not be as distracting as a properly scribed cue? You're right, I recoil at that. quote: Jack Ondracek Maybe using the artists tape would be a good alternative? The alternative for the motor and changeover cues would be to use the scribe, and for your curtain cues use your skills and a pre-run of the reel to judge by image or soundtrack when to hit the curtains. That's exactly what we had to do on the military base I started my film career at, we were not allowed to put any cues on the National Anthem trailer or the preview and feature snipes. I would like to kill whoever came up with the "hole punch" cue maker. There is one or two out there that makes smaller holes than the standard paper punch...perhaps those were intended for editorial or lab use only, but I have run into them on release prints.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 05-11-2009 04:04 PM                        Do not use scribe circles! Grease pencil can wear off much too quickly. Instead, I highly recommend hole punches. Never miss another changeover again!  |  IP: Logged Tony Bandiera Jr Film God Posts: 3067 From: Moreland Idaho Registered: Apr 2004 posted 05-11-2009 04:13 PM                     Love ya Joe..  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 05-11-2009 04:32 PM                     Scribed cues all the way. Grease pencils are obnoxious on screen and as most people lay the film down on a table to mark them and to remove them, they end up scuffing up that stretch of film. If a lab scribes cues on their EK prints and release prints have printed cues, I don't see why anyone would want to slash grease pencil marks across the image since obviously cues are deemed acceptable. Just use the 24 frame standard, not the 18. That way if a few frames get chopped off during handling, at least there is a decent length of time after the last cue.  |  IP: Logged Ian Parfrey Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1049 From: Imbil Australia 26 deg 27' 42.66" S 152 deg 42' 23.40" E Registered: Feb 2009 posted 05-11-2009 05:01 PM                     Louis. Do you have any more info on that drive-in with the 1500' throw? That sounds facinating. Maybe a good topic for another thread? Cheers Ian  |  IP: Logged Chris Slycord Film God Posts: 2986 From: 퍼항시, 경상푹도, South Korea Registered: Mar 2007 posted 05-11-2009 05:27 PM                     Maybe it's just me but wouldn't having the fog come in (to the point of making the image impossible to see through it) also make the on-screen image awful, even for a drive-in?  |  IP: Logged Jack Ondracek Film God Posts: 2348 From: Port Orchard, WA, USA Registered: Oct 2002 posted 05-11-2009 08:06 PM                        quote: Tony Bandiera Jr I don't like the idea of the "Click" cues, as they will cause noticeable image jump and it would be possibly for the soundtrack to mask them. (You do changeovers with the monitor loud enough to hear the soundtrack, right? To avoid cutting off dialogue? ) I don't recall image jump being a major issue. Perhaps the width of the cues were small enough that they didn't cause the same jump that a glue splice would have. They were wrapped around the non sound-track side, and normally didn't make it halfway into the frame. In any case, it was a long time ago, and the practice was endorsed, and taught me by senior members of the Seattle local. Hard to argue with the wisdom of the time. As for booth monitor level... I don't recall ever working in a booth that was so loud you had to blast the monitor to the point of masking everything else. My recollection was that clickers were easily heard. Maybe it was because I was so close to the projector? Past that, I have no argument with your views on the matter. Personally, I never had much trouble seeing even the faintest cues, and some of them were blended in pretty well. The only use I ever had for a cue marker was when we'd get sub-run films that had been chopped to bits by previous theatres. The clickers were widely seen as a backup tool, used to ensure the success of the changeover. General aviation pilots are trained that avoidance of other aircraft is our personal responsibility. Scanning techniques are part of basic training. In my plane, I have an electronic gizmo that reads transponder signals from other nearby planes. It displays distance and direction information that I can use as a tool to assist that which is my primary means of observation... my eyeballs. The gizmo is not a legal substitute... only an augmentation. I suppose those of us who used clickers back then could view them in somewhat the same manner.  |  IP: Logged

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