Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | my password | register | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » film sticking issue

   
Author Topic: film sticking issue
Sean Kapp
Film Handler

Posts: 30
From: Columbiana OH USA
Registered: Jun 2008


 - posted 08-07-2008 11:02 PM      Profile for Sean Kapp   Email Sean Kapp   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We ran into an interesting problem this evening druing out 7pm show. I was not present for the main issue, how ever I did witness it when I came in to remove the burnt out frame.

At almost the end of reel 3, the film severly stuck to its self and thus tried to payout a double layer of film. This cause a major lockup on the payout. Luckily, our projectionist and one in training were right there and quickly powered down.

We do run with a Neumade film cleaner with Film Guard and this sticking problem (not any where close to this bad) started just shortly after we started using the cleaning system. The film always seperated and payed out with out issue.

Any suggestions on how to prevent the film from sticking and causing sever issues again is greatly appreciated!!

 |  IP: Logged

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17589
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 08-08-2008 12:13 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
First off, Neumade does not have a film cleaning system. They sell media pads, but that's it.

Second, how are you using the "cleaning system"? Be specific.

Are you first run or sub run? Was this print used?

What kind of splicers do you have and what condition are they in? When you make a splice are there any leftover bits of tape from where the sprocket holes were punched? Does it perfectly trim the edges of the tape flush with the film edge?

What kind of splicing tape were you using?

What kind of platter do you have?

What movie was this and how long had you been playing it?

FilmGuard quite simply can not create sticking (unless you are using some kind of knockoff product and are calling it by the trade name...like calling an off brand tissue "Kleenex"), so to solve your issue we need to know lots more specifics about your booth.

 |  IP: Logged

Sean Kapp
Film Handler

Posts: 30
From: Columbiana OH USA
Registered: Jun 2008


 - posted 08-08-2008 08:02 AM      Profile for Sean Kapp   Email Sean Kapp   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My mistake, the cleaner is the Kelmar film cleaner. It is using the Film-Tech media and FilmGuard that was purchased from R. S. Engineering & Manufacturing. The cleaner is being used as directed in the instructions with the FilmGuard product. It is mounted to the platter.

We are first run, the print was a new print of Dark Knight

The splicer is a Neumade, condition is fairly well. There isn't any left over tape bits and the cuts are flush to the film edge.

The tape we are using is Jack Roe USA's Splicemark Brightline Magenta marking tape.

We are using Alpha platters.

The movie plays once Monday - Thursday, twice on Friday and Sunday and three times on Saturday with an addational showing on opening day giving it a total of 29 runs with out any issue.

 |  IP: Logged

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17589
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 08-08-2008 10:51 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
The instructions can vary depending on your need, so that doesn't tell me a whole lot, but regardless that isn't your problem since all that will do is reduce static and lubricate. Since it jammed at the reel change, it really does sound like the adhesive from the tape at the splice oozed and is causing adjacent layers of film to stick to it. Seen it happen many times.

 |  IP: Logged

Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12088
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-08-2008 10:53 AM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Could there possibly have been a small drop of water or something that got onto the film as it was leaving the projector on the previous run? The droplet could have stuck two layers of film together when the film was wrapped on to the takeup platter.

 |  IP: Logged

Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12855
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 08-08-2008 11:11 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
First I must say that the cleaner probably isn't doing much if it is mounted on a Strong platter (some people call them "Alpha's" for one reason or another). There just isn't enough backtension due to the overall piss-poor design of the platter for the cleaner to do a proper job at that point. You'll have to run the cleaner many times to equal one pass with a real platter.

 |  IP: Logged

Sean Kapp
Film Handler

Posts: 30
From: Columbiana OH USA
Registered: Jun 2008


 - posted 08-08-2008 12:22 PM      Profile for Sean Kapp   Email Sean Kapp   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The problem didn't happen right at the reel change but rather about 3 minutes to go until the change. There is how ever a lab splice in the vicinity of the issue. Could this be the cause of the problem?

Tonight is the last run (2 shows) of this film. Just looking for ideas on how to prevent this issue in the future.

John, The Strong/Alpha is what came with the theater when the current owner purchased it. It, along with many other things are on the list of things to replace as time and money allows.

 |  IP: Logged

Dominic Espinosa
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1172
From: Boulder Creek, CA.
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted 08-08-2008 04:13 PM      Profile for Dominic Espinosa   Email Dominic Espinosa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Unless the lab splice has a burr that managed to snag a sprocket hole severely enough to pull it in I doubt that would be the case.
I second the question -- did the print manage to get wet somewhere. Maybe you have some projector oil on it that is thick and gummy? That would cause an issue later in the run. Had this problem with a print of Pirates 2. Simplex leaked like a sieve all over the place and the print eventually got enough in one spot near the credits that it would pull additional laps of film up and sling it right off the platter.

I can personally attest to the miracle that is FilmGuard. Saved that print. And very recently I had a print of Hancock get water damaged.
Condensation from the air conditioner dripped through a duct and made it's way down the ceiling to finally drip onto a platter allowing the print, on the final show of the night, to take up a nice even coating of water on the bottom edge of the print.

Several hours, a few ounces of FG and some of those nifty wipes they have for your eyeglasses and the print looked better than new.

One more time...FilmGuard is _never_ the problem [Wink]

 |  IP: Logged

Sean Kapp
Film Handler

Posts: 30
From: Columbiana OH USA
Registered: Jun 2008


 - posted 08-08-2008 07:50 PM      Profile for Sean Kapp   Email Sean Kapp   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dominic

We are running a Simplex with a oil leak as well. This would make sens in causing the sticks and is more than likely the issue we are having.

I personally never thought it to be the Film Guard, how ever I had a very instant house manager that insists that it is causing the problem.

We are pursuing the purchase of a new projector, it is most definitely the next thing to be replaced in the booth!!

 |  IP: Logged

Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8151
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004


 - posted 08-08-2008 09:17 PM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Sean Kapp
Simplex with a oil leak as well. This would make sens in causing the sticks
I've got 26 Simplexes to fuss with and have my share of 'runny noses' with these things, but never heard this one.

And FG isn't the cause -trust me. It's superior stuff for film lubrication.

I would say this stickiness issue comes from a print where a set of sprocketholes got dinged a bit causing them to hook next to each other....being it was away from the splice (Alpha Make-up tables, if one isn't careful can destroy film when it wants to..and I'll freely admit that one..thus, wonder if that section of the reel that contains this problem is caused by a slight case of film stretch where the one edge of the sprocketholes was slightly magnified due to stretching and could cause hooking next to one another..??)

..any issues of rollers being aligned across the sprockets, or do you have pad rollers that are too tight across a sprocket that would ding some sprocketholes a bit?

But "No! .. let's blame the labs for this since they sometimes have a problem with their QA dept on print manufacture."

-Monte

 |  IP: Logged

Sean Kapp
Film Handler

Posts: 30
From: Columbiana OH USA
Registered: Jun 2008


 - posted 08-08-2008 09:24 PM      Profile for Sean Kapp   Email Sean Kapp   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
All sprocket holes appear to be ok. By ok, I mean flat and smooth and normal. The previous owner of the theater and his staff didnt exactly take great care of equipment. Repairs are a normal for us any more so in the end, I guess any thing is a possibility at this point. Sooner or later all will be new and well maintained.

 |  IP: Logged

Justin Hamaker
Film God

Posts: 2009
From: Lakeport, CA USA
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted 08-09-2008 01:58 AM      Profile for Justin Hamaker   Author's Homepage   Email Justin Hamaker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sean

We had a similar problem with our midnight opening show of Dark Knight. The problem happened about 5 feet from a lab glue splice on reel 5. The best I can figure, they used a piece of tape to hold the film and when they removed the tape it left some adhesive behind. The net result was two loops of film stuck together just enough to shut down the projector during the first showing.

One thought as to what might have caused your problem is that a piece of tape that was holding the cleaning media to the roll came off when the roll ran out and this piece of tape stuck to the film and then caused it to stick the next show. This comes to mind because I had a roll of media cleaner run out on a showing of Sisterhood yesterday and when I was threading for the next show, I found an oily piece of tape on the inside of the projector near the sound head.

One thing you might consider (or suggest to the powers that be) is to install pay-out side fail-safes on all of your platters. When the film binds due to a brain wrap or because loops of film stick together, it will shut the projector down and you will not have damaged film.

Because of one of these fail safes, when we had the problem with our Dark Knight show, I was able to have the film back on screen in less than two minutes - just enough time for me to hear the alarm, run upstairs, and check the film and path to make sure there was no problem. I stuck a small piece of paper in the film so I knew where the problem was when I had a chance to pull it off the next day.

 |  IP: Logged

Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8151
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004


 - posted 08-09-2008 04:23 AM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Justin Hamaker
The problem happened about 5 feet from a lab glue splice on reel 5.
... Why some circuits contain a rule that all lab splices to be removed prior to film build.

They're actually easy to find if you remove one side of a reel flange. One will see the change in edge texture and contrast when the two rolls of blank print stock is spliced together prior to laying on the emulsion for positive printing.

Some lab splices are quite nasty in themselves being heat splices. But once in a while a taped one slips by QA and gets mixed up in the batch.

-Monte

 |  IP: Logged

Justin Hamaker
Film God

Posts: 2009
From: Lakeport, CA USA
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted 08-09-2008 04:36 AM      Profile for Justin Hamaker   Author's Homepage   Email Justin Hamaker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I removed the lab splice, but I missed the adhesive that came after it. Besides this possible problem, I always remove them because I hate the way they look on screen. I've also seen them starting to separate before the film has even been run once. Of course this probably isn't news to most on this forum.

 |  IP: Logged

Phil Blake
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 558
From: esperance western australia
Registered: Nov 2003


 - posted 08-09-2008 10:33 AM      Profile for Phil Blake   Author's Homepage   Email Phil Blake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Experienced exact same deal as Sean, Hancock kept wrapping near near end of real 4 I asked the "boys" to check it out , they checked our splice but missed the lab splice that had sticky tape residue about 3 feet from the splice , note beware the lab splices.

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)  
Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2018 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.