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Author Topic: what is this core? Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-13-2008 01:00 PM                        Well...what is it? Who uses these? What kind of split reel accepts them? This one came on a film festival print from some non-US non-European country (Japan?) a few years ago.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-13-2008 03:13 PM                     You don't use a split reel with that type of core. You use a "flat"...in particular, a 9mm spindle with a "flange." Most non-US countries do not ship on reels. Think about it...when is a shipping reel used? Just for shipping. For projection, the film is transfered to either a House Reel or to a platter...either way, a shipping reel doesn't add anything. You might have noticed that Euro manufacturers always have their MUTs horizontal with flanges (or Plates or Flats)...they also use 9mm rather than 5/16" If you are set up for this sort of thing...then the core you posted skips a step...just drop the film down and build up (or transfer). Steve  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 07-13-2008 04:44 PM                     Steve, You mentioned these cores with a 9mm bore once before, but I've never actually seen one. This would explain the hand rewind at the Clocktower when I was projecting there. We tend to use a plate on a rewind bench, rather than a split spool. this rewind had fixed plates on both sides, and used to have square spindles for 16mm. When they stopped running 16mm these spindles were replaced by 9mm ones for 35mm spools. when using spools the flange of the spool rests on the fixed plate, and when using standard cores with a 1" bore the standard plate fits on the spindle, so there are two plates on that side. I haven't seen one like it, but it would allow the use of a core like this, without needing the normal separate plate as well. I have seen cores with a small 5/16" or 3/8" hole, but these have been very old wooden ones. Scott, is that core metal?  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-14-2008 07:47 AM                        No, it's a regular plastic core. So, what is the preferred way for US theatres with Kelmar or Neumade rewind benches to deal with prints shipped on these? In this case, the print (I forget the title) was wound tightly and I was able to rewind it onto regular reels by placing these cores on Kelmar 5/16" pin-drive shafts (the pin happens to fit perfectly in one of the drive holes) and carefully holding the edges while rewinding slowly. I have no idea how I could have done this if the print had been wound loosely. I shipped it back on standard Kodak cores. I have no problem with shipping on cores (normal ones, not oddball ones like these), as long as the film is wound tightly and the end is taped down well. Unfortunately, core shipments usually come in broken plastic lab cans (or bent metal ones) in a cardboard box with no styrofoam or other protection. Someone really should come up with a better shipping container for film on cores.  |  IP: Logged John Walsh Film God Posts: 2490 From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way Registered: Oct 1999 posted 07-14-2008 08:14 AM                     I guess you need a 9mm trailer flange, but I've never seen one although they must exist. Both Neumade and Kelmar make 9mm spindles, which is OK for taking the film off of a core. (I'm guessing that the 'dog' pin and distance would fit that core's hole.)  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-14-2008 08:41 PM                     A proper 9mm spindle does have a dog pin that engages the holes on the 9mm core shown. All you really need to do is affix a plate to your 9mm spindles (as John said, available from both Kelmar(green) and Neumade). If need be, plates can be had from such sorces as Kinoton but any plate, including an old 2000' trailer flange will do. Drill 3 or so holes, counterbore them and then drill/tap maching holes in the 9mm spindle shaft...screw the plate on with flat-head screws and whola...an Americanized 9mm core plate. Steve  |  IP: Logged John Walsh Film God Posts: 2490 From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way Registered: Oct 1999 posted 07-14-2008 09:53 PM                     I have two different dimensions for the spindle to dog distance for 9mm spindles. But, I don't know which is actually used, or if both are. I couldn't find a 9mm spindle 'standard' in SMPTE. Maybe someone could tell me which is really used; I can't tell since 9mm isn't used in the US.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-14-2008 11:16 PM                     John, The dog pin on the 9mm shaft is pretty darn tight to the shaft (on all of the ones I've seen...though on this side of the pond, viewings are a bit limited). The dog pin on the 9mm shaft is 6mm. The 12.7mm shaft (1/2") uses a dog pin of 8mm diameter and is somewhat similarly spaced to the American 1/2" spindle except the American dog pin is only .25". I know the American .25" dog pin will run a Euro 12.7mm reel with an 8mm drive hole. The reverse, however, is not true. If I can the next time I'm in one of our theatres with the 9mm spindles (and they are Euro made) I see if I can measure the spacing for you. Steve  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 07-15-2008 01:49 AM                     The closer spaced one above looks like the ones we have here, though I don't have one at home at the moment that I can measure. Old Kalee 3/8" spools will fit on Kinoton 9mm Spindles, though there is a problem using them for take-up, I've seen several different versions of 1/2". Towers generally have one dog pin, though premier rewinders have two, spaced at 180 degrees. Cinemeccanica plastic spools have four holes spaced at 90 degrees, but some tower spools have three holes, spaced at 120 degrees, and so will not fit on a spindle with two dogs, such as the Premier rewinder has. Again, I don't have one handy to measure, but I think the dog on all of the 1/2" spindles I've seen has been smaller than 8mm. Kinoton list both European and American 1/2" spindles for their machines, but I never knew what the difference was. The old GBN portable that I've seen at Bletchley Park has 1/2" spindles, but with a smaller dog, in about the same position as the 9mm one. I've seen several different versions of 5/16" spindles; the one with a key, as is common in the US, but much less so here now, though it was more widely used in the past. There's another version with a dog, like a smaller version of the 9mm one, and one with a square, as is used for 16mm film. I've only seen this used for microfilm, and it's convenient where both 16mm and 35mm film are used on the same reader. Was 5/16" ever used for 70mm, or any of the other wide gauges? I have seen it used with 6k spools of 35mm, at the ICA Cinema 1 in London for example, but I don't like it with that much weight on it. The large spools used on the Fedi Solo fit a much larger spindle, about 20-25mm, and the Mk.1 BTH SUPA had a weird arrangement, a sort of large, splined, thing from memory, though it's some years since I've seen one. Of course, very early projectors generally didn't use spools at all, and when they did start to be used there were no standards, and so each model was different. So, that's three different 5/16" ones, two different 9mm, one 3/8", four different 1/2", plus a few odd ones. Anybody know of any others? Dogs seem to have been more of a European thing, Pathe used smaller versions of them for both 9.5mm and 17.5mm, but Kodak didn't on 16mm, 8mm and Super-8. I think the Pathe 28mm used a key, but It's a long time since I've seen one of those. What do you do over there when you have projectors which take 1/2" spools, all of the 'shipping reels' seem to be 5/16", do you have a rewinder with different spindles on each end, or interchangeable spindles, or adapters, or what? Apart from the flat 'table' type most rewinders here either have fixed spindles, or ones which can be changed, but it's a screwdriver or allen key job, not very convenient if you're changing size frequently. To wind on or off a core we just slip the plate onto the spindle on one side or the other. I know of a couple of places with more than one screen, which use different sizes in each; they tend to use the Cinemeccanica plastic spools, with interchangeable centres, to move prints from one to the other. It looks like I may be 'un-retired' to project again for just one day soon, 9mm on Kinotons, which suits me just fine. [ 07-15-2008, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Stephen Furley ]  |  IP: Logged Mark Hajducki Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 500 From: Edinburgh, UK Registered: May 2003 posted 07-15-2008 07:51 AM                     quote: Stephen Furley I have seen cores with a small 5/16" or 3/8" hole, but these have been very old wooden ones. Last year I received a print with solid wooden cores (no holes in them at all). There was also a note in the one of the film cans telling me how much I would be charged if I did not return the leaders with the prints. I was tempted to keep the leaders so as to get charged 12 shillings (shillings stopped being part of the UK currency in 1971 when the currency became decimal).  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 07-15-2008 09:46 AM                     Blank cores! Drill your own holes, broach your own keyway! The ultimate in D-I-Y Film Handling! --jhawk  |  IP: Logged John Walsh Film God Posts: 2490 From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way Registered: Oct 1999 posted 07-15-2008 10:13 AM                     I have seen 70mm trailer flanges with smaller (5/16") spindle holes, but they only held about 10 min of film; mostly for editing tables. 6000ft 35mm reels with 5/16" spindles are fairly common here in the US; I think they came into being during the later 1950's or so when longer running times were desired, (either for 3D or just for operator convenience.) Projector manufacturers probably (at first) just started making their existing magazines larger, but with the same spindle parts. Also, the rewind tables then in use didn't have changeable spindles. So, snce you needed to buy a larger reel anyway, get one with a spindle that matches what you already have .. I guess. Although, Stephen is right; the extra weight really wrecks the spindle. OT - Wasn't there a record album where you actually had to drill your own hole?  |  IP: Logged Dick Vaughan Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1032 From: Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK Registered: Jul 2000 posted 07-15-2008 10:15 AM                        quote: John Walsh OT - Wasn't there a record album where you actually had to drill your own hole? Must have been a Virgin Records release  |  IP: Logged Jean-Marc Toussaint Film Handler Posts: 60 From: Paris, France Registered: May 2008 posted 07-15-2008 02:14 PM                        John: Dog offset is commonly 0.45 in for 9mm spindle. Although I'm installing a 15k tower with half-inch spindles Cinemeccanica parts (and shaft adaptors as most of the bigger reels feature a 20mm - roughly 4/5 inch - spindle hole) I have a Microcine 6k transport which still runs in 9 mm (actually 9.2).  |  IP: Logged

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