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Author Topic: Kinoton FP20 skate/runner Jeff Else Expert Film Handler Posts: 125 From: Detroit, MI, USA Registered: Nov 2006 posted 07-04-2008 02:49 AM                     is there a better replacement skate/runner situation available for the Kinoton FP20 than the brittle black plastic ones? I have heard that there are white nylon ones that wear less easily. Anyone know if they exist, who makes them and where to get them?  |  IP: Logged Tim Asten Film Handler Posts: 98 From: Brighton, United Kingdom Registered: Nov 2006 posted 07-04-2008 06:01 AM                     Hi Jeff. As far as I am aware, both the white and black skates are made of the same material called Delrin. Kinoton use the material because Delrin is very kind to the film. We used to be supplied with the white skates but now we have been getting the black ones and white runners, but I cannot tell any difference in performance between the two. With careful use and gate alignment they should last for months. You mention the word 'brittle'. Sounds like you are having reliability problems with the skates. Perhaps you could explain further? Take care, Tim.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 07-04-2008 06:03 AM                     The nylon skates cause unnecessary film wear. Stick to the black delrin ones. As far as the runners, I greatly prefer the metal runners, but they are expensive.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-04-2008 08:37 AM                     We have grind customers getting YEARS out of the black delrin skates...they do use Film Guard though. The only other skates available are the brown ones...they are hard, brittle, and WILL break if drop them. The only alleged value is their longevity (presumming you don't drop them) as they are harder. For runner strips, you have Delrin (white), Novotex (brown fiber) and Metal (metal). All of them have people to declare them their favorites. I have noted that when using non-Kinoton lamphouses that the delrin runners get chalky and brittle around the aperture...most notably Christie light, which is rather hot. Strong will do it too but to a lesser degree. We are still getting a long life out of them but I've debated about switching to Novotex runners for those theatres. With Kinoton light...no problems...even up to 7KW on the white delrin runners and I have little doubt that we could go up to 10K with them. Steve  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 07-04-2008 02:32 PM                     Novotex runners do not solve that problem Steve. Switch to steel runners and the problems vanish.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-04-2008 05:03 PM                     I dunno Brad...I've known many a FP20 with Novotex runners with Super Lume-Xes behind them without problems. I don't doubt that the Christie's will still do damage as I've found them to be notably hotter. Steve  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 07-04-2008 06:01 PM                     The Novotex runners are like that orange skate...they cause film shedding. The BEST combination is steel runners with the black delrin skates. If steel runners are out of the budget, then the white delrin runners are ok, but you have to change them out regularly and from my own observations do not produce as steady of an image and definitely cause more film wear over the steel. (This is evidenced by SRD error rates increasing with the delrin, where the steel runners the error rates stay the same. Also once I installed the steel runners over the delrin, the shedding was virtually eliminated. I will never understand this industry's fetish for delrin.)  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-04-2008 10:03 PM                     Brad, I've NEVER had a problem with Delrin increasing error rates on Dolby Digital...never. As for steadiness...again...never a problem with steadiness on delrin. I'm interested to try the steel though. Steve  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 07-04-2008 10:07 PM                     The red/orange colored runners blatantly cause SRD damage. The white delrin is minor BUT if you look carefully you will see that the steel is gentler on the film. Plus they NEVER have to be replaced, since they don't wear, and they can't melt either. The steel runners and black delrin skate combination should run for years without having to change out that skate (which is amazingly cheap anyway).  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-04-2008 10:14 PM                     Most, if not all of our FP20/26/28s have the Novotex runners...none have Dolby Digital problems. None have any particular shedding problems. Seriously. Steve  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 07-04-2008 10:40 PM                  (I'm suprised Mark hasn't chimed in on this...)  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-05-2008 09:37 AM                        I thought that the whole point of the Delrin parts was that the Delrin would wear down over time instead of the film. Is this not the case? The Kinotons that I've operated have all had the Delrin trap parts and the black or white skates; all have been super-gentle on film and run old, beat-up prints easily. How does one know when it is time to replace the skate?  |  IP: Logged Mike Olpin Chop Chop! Posts: 1852 From: Dallas, TX Registered: Jan 2002 posted 07-05-2008 10:35 AM                     How do I know when to replace the skate and runners? The runners are the plastic white kind, and they seem fine right now. The skate (black derlin) has just a tiny bit of wear inside the edge of lower curved area where the intermittent is. They have about 6-9 months of use on them. Also, when running a new print, the first few shows shed a lot around the ceramic lateral rollers. Is that an alignment issue? FP50D projector and console Film Guard is used about 70% of the time. (One of our 3 operators really doesn't like to use it)  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-05-2008 01:21 PM                     Ok, I'll chime in....  |  IP: Logged Jeff Else Expert Film Handler Posts: 125 From: Detroit, MI, USA Registered: Nov 2006 posted 07-05-2008 06:52 PM                     how much are the metal runners and where can i get them? I assume they outlast the skates and therefore don't have to be changed when the skate is changed....  |  IP: Logged

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