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Author Topic: Quality alternative to Blue Star lenses? Peter Amies Film Handler Posts: 3 From: Wellington, New Zealand Registered: Feb 2007 posted 10-01-2007 01:57 AM                     Hi everyone! I'm in a bit of a bind, and could do with some assistance shopping for a new scope lens. I have the budget to replace an existing scope lens due to a screen size adjustment, and am having trouble finding the perfect lens. Currently we have an 85mm integrated Isco Ultra-Star HD Plus (red) lens. I need to replace this with a 95mm focal length, and at the same time I'm hoping to improve the corner to corner focus issue we've always had with the current unit. So I've looked at: 95mm integrated Ultra-Star HD Plus (easy swap for the current lens, but doesn't solve the focus issue) 95mm Ultra-Star HD Plus prime / Ultra-Star HD CS attachment (would the separate component system improve focus at all?) 95mm Ultra-Star HD Plus prime with Blue-Star CS attachment I love the Blue-Star attachment (as I know a lot of you do) and a side-by-side comparison with the integrated red lens shows a MASSIVE improvement in focus. Problem is, the sheer size and weight of the Blue lens scares me! It's mounted in an FP-30EQ with a 3 lens turret, and with the Blue attachment (we've borrowed a sample for testing) you can hear the motor on the turret really having to work hard to move the lens. Does anyone know of a lens combo that could give me the image quality of the Red / Blue set, without the massive size and weight? Are the Blue-Star integrated anamorphics any smaller, and has anyone ever used a magnification attachment to alter the focal length (it seems crazy that they're only available in 42, 45 and 48mm lengths)? Is magnifying the integrated Blue lens even a possibility? Thanks in advance for all your advice. Peter  |  IP: Logged David Graham Rose Expert Film Handler Posts: 187 From: Cambridge, UK Registered: Sep 2002 posted 10-01-2007 01:25 PM                     Greetings Why not look at the Schneider range of Cinelux Premiere lenses? One can purchase a combined anamorph with variable iris. I've always found these to give extremely good focus. Regards David  |  IP: Logged David Stambaugh Film God Posts: 4021 From: Eugene, Oregon Registered: Jan 2002 posted 10-01-2007 02:14 PM                        Is the ISCO "red" lens inherently incapable of uniform focus? Or is it just difficult to set up correctly? I'm asking because the new Regal 15 here uses those lenses and I've noticed the same non-uniformity of focus across the entire screen. (Although where it *is* in perfect focus, it's very sharp.)  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-01-2007 02:56 PM                     I've found that the RED ISCO lenses are among the best available. Mark  |  IP: Logged Cameron Glendinning Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 845 From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia Registered: Dec 2005 posted 10-01-2007 05:01 PM                     Um unless the lens has been dropped, or is heat damaged ect, you really should be able to get a great image out of it. Perhaps something else is at fault? I have found in the past that xenon/ mirror alignment can be a big factor with scope focus.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-01-2007 05:51 PM                     Those ISCO red lenses suck. They kill the contrast just to pass more light! Anyone who thinks they are better than the Schneider Premiere lenses should have their eyes checked. (For that matter, regular Schneider lenses are better too.)  |  IP: Logged Peter Amies Film Handler Posts: 3 From: Wellington, New Zealand Registered: Feb 2007 posted 10-01-2007 06:20 PM                     I've always loved the Red Isco lenses, but from my experience, they aren't the best performers when it comes to even focus. I've seen the same thing across multiple lenses, on multiple screens, so I'm certain it's an inherent part of the lens design. It's also something a number of people on this forum have mentioned on a number of occasions. Anyone know if there would be a noticeable difference between the Red integrated scope and separate Red prime / attachment combo? The Blue-star lenses (in comparison) have astounding geometry and focus (which, again, a huge number of you have mentioned). But they're just SO chunky! A little too much in a triple barrel turret. Brad, how have you found the Schneider Premiere compared to the Isco Blue? And if the variable iris isn't an issue for me, would I ever notice the difference between the Premiere and standard ES series of lenses? Beyond that, can an anamorphic attachment be coupled with the Schneider Variable Primes?  |  IP: Logged Ian Freer Expert Film Handler Posts: 135 From: Wellington, New Zealand Registered: Oct 2003 posted 10-01-2007 08:16 PM                     Hi Peter I may be able to bring a Schneider ES Cinelux integrated anamorphic lens for you to check out. It is unfortunately 82.5mm, so won't make your image smaller as you seem to be wanting to do, but as it's close to the 85mm you're using now it may give a reasonable indicative example of performance. The lens is not brand new, but wasn't used for more than a couple of years before it was replaced (ironically in this case) by an Isco lens... I'm not sure of the rules for posting contact information, but I'll check my registered details to ensure they're up to date and hopefully you can contact me via those if you want to. Cheers, Ian  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 10-01-2007 11:26 PM                     Sorry Brad...I've done the shootout on Schneider Premier vs the ISCO RED lenses...on a target for target basis, the ISCO resolved as much or more line pairs in each target. The Schneider needed to have it iris adjusted to beyond f/2.0 before it had the same resolution but a substantial decrease in overall light level. The ISCO also out performed the Schneider in chromatic abberations too. This was all done with a Schneider representative present using identical focal length lenses on the same projector/same screen...only the lens was changed and a USL light meter checking the light levels as the lenses were adjusted or changed. I do beieve the Schneider had a greater contrast (it wasn't measured...sorry) but at the expense of all other criteria. Both SMPTE and Schnedier targets were run too. The Schneider lens is also more critical about being dead square to the aperture than ISCO. I think one of the reasons people think the Schneider lens resolves so much is their high-contrast but in fact they are resolving less detail but instead have a sharp light/dark transition...to which detail gets lost. I suppose on one of my future tests...it would be good to measure the contrast ratio of the two otherwise identical lenses. One last thing...when evaluating lenses and resolution... believe it or not, lamphouse alignment is critical. What you are really focusing is light with the lens and if the light is distorted coming out of the lamphouse (bad reflector or alignment) you will never achieve the maximum results with ANY lens. As to the anamorphics. ISCO integrated anamorphic is nothing more than the same 4-element compact anamorphic they have been using for decades...even if coupled to a red prime lens. There is no substitute for the Blue-Star anamorphic...It resolves the most, has the least amount of distortion too. I use it almost exclusively. For those times when only a compact anamorphic will do, I strongly recommend the Schneider ES anamorphic. It too is only a 4-element job but I think it does quiet well with shorter prime lenses. Unlike ISCO, the ES anamorphic is just an attachment that can be used with most any prime lens. I've tested it down to 28mm for use with 16mm film too. It is one of Schneider's better products. Steve  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-02-2007 12:22 AM                     Customers don't give a flip about numbers and target patterns. All they care about is what looks the best. Schneider wins.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 10-02-2007 06:18 AM                     And yet, amazingly, I never get any complaints on the ISCO lenses...and in many installations I have a mix of Schneider and ISCO (depending on focal length/format) and never has the Schneider come away as the customer preferred looking image...in fact, they both come away looking excellent. Steve  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-02-2007 08:49 AM                     quote: Brad Miller Customers don't give a flip about numbers and target patterns. All they care about is what looks the best. Brad, You're absolutely right on! Thats why they are all heading to the nearest digital installations to watch their movies... Personally, I've found pretty much what Steve posted. Its easy to mistake extra contrast as perceived image sharpness when it actually isn't. We have quite a few red ISCO lenses on short throw/large screen installs and the images are excellent with very flat focus. Mark  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-02-2007 09:55 AM                     I have had more schnieder anamorphs go soft over time than iscos  |  IP: Logged Chris Slycord Film God Posts: 2986 From: 퍼항시, 경상푹도, South Korea Registered: Mar 2007 posted 10-02-2007 09:59 AM                     quote: Mark Gulbrandsen You're absolutely right on! Thats why they are all heading to the nearest digital installations to watch their movies... Despite what you think, the average person doesn't know if a place uses DLP or not. The only way they'd know is if the people advertise it and a lot of the times they wouldn't know the difference without going to read about it.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-02-2007 01:04 PM                     quote: Chris Slycord Despite what you think, the average person doesn't know if a place uses DLP or not. Ha, What planet are you from...? Indeed every patron that is in his/her/its seat when the presentation starts is subjected to the fairly impressive T.I. DLP header... then at the locations that pertain the Dolby Digital Cinema Header after that... So yes... all the folks in their seats in this town very definately know that its DLP. Also... If you knew how lousy film projection is in this part of the counrty..... Mark  |  IP: Logged

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