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Author Topic: FP-18 sound problem Alain LeTourneau Film Handler Posts: 37 From: Portland, OR Registered: Jan 2004 posted 04-01-2007 02:21 AM                        There's a problem with the FP-18 at the local art cinema. It has a warble (under water sound) that is so persistent I wonder if it's more than mis-threading? The bottom loop is requiring more slack than usual. Some reels sound fine, while others sound as if the sound drum isn't working properly. Lubrication was applied to the fly wheel shaft in order to travel down and lubrcate the sound drum bearing, but the sound problem has been returning and requiring the machine to be stopped and rethreaded with a larger bottom loop. Is the FP-18 rather finicky about bottom loop size, or is it something else ???  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 04-01-2007 05:32 AM                        The FP-18 is a bit finicky about bottom loop size, but mainly because if you make it too big there's a risk of the film striking the bottom of the mechanism housing and getting scratched. I can't see how this could cause the problem you describe. Could there by a problem with the lay-on roller not maintaining even tension for any significant length of time (e.g. a worn spring)?  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 04-01-2007 06:30 AM                        Sounds like the rubber O ring on that roller is worn or split. Could also be that the spring is worn and needs to be readjusted like Dr. Leo said. The correct spring tension can be adjusted with a spring scale. I forgot how much you have to have on it though and don't have access to the manual right now. Maybe someone who has can provide that info.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-01-2007 07:31 AM                     Rubber O-ring? What are you talking about Mike...this is not an FP30/38? The FP18 is a 16mm machine...I don't recall any O-rings on it.... Okay..YES the FP18 is a finicky (as is its FP16 older brother) for sound. First off...verify that that there is NO binding on the sound drum shaft...take the flywheel off to verify this. If need be lubricate the drum shaft bearings with Esso Hany Oil (or other light weight oil...nothing too thick). There is a metal pinch roller that pinches the film down onto the drum. With no film, verify that this roller does not actually contact the drum. The is a stop adjustment for it. You want to make sure that it clears the drum with no film but it presses on the film when film is threaded so there is about 1/2 a film thickness of space (ever so slight). Now we get to the most likely culprits...those two metal guide rollers...the one just before and one just after the sound drum. They set the damping of the system, believe it or not. You really need to use a mixture of Cardan Oil and Esso Handy oil to get the consistancy you will need. The pinch roller should be on the thin side of mixture such that when you lubricate the shaft it rides on it has a little thickening but not enough to cause any sort of binding. The Cardan oil's job is to buffer out vibractions caused by the intermittent immediately above it. If you apply too much Cardan oil to the mixture, you will create drag which will work against the flywheel an drum as well. The metal roller after the drum needs a thicker solution (heavier on the Cardan oil). This will cause the film to run a little slack between the drum and the metal roller and thus keep vibrations from the take up from making to the drum. Lastly, make sure you have the proper tension on the damper arm when you thread (the arm is where that second metal roller is)...when you have it threaded properly (and not running) the metal roller will line up perfectly with the plastic roller right above it. When you start the projector...the damper arm should pull in until the drum gets up to speed, then it should return to almost where you set it. If the lower loop chatters a lot on the plastic roller right above drum...YOU'VE GOT IT! If it forms a big quiet loop...you'll have flutter...if it is pulling tight going into the drum...you'll have flutter. Only when it is forming its own slight pucker of a loop that chatters will all be good. You will need to clean and relube those metal rollers 2-4 times a year and that is life with the FP16/FP18. The Cardan oil will set up and sit at the bottom of the roller shaft and then it is done until you clean it and relube. Don't forget you need to clean the inside of the metal roller bore (w/ Q-tip) as well as the shaft. In truth...all of this normally only takes a minute or two and if done regularly isn't too big a deal. If you know you won't be using it for a while...clean the lube off and just apply Esso oil to keep the shafts from oxidizing...it is the Cardan oil that seems to turn to goo and muck it up over time. Steve  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 04-01-2007 08:03 AM                     We make alot of $$ maintaining the FP-16/FP18's in our area.... they are truely two of the MOST overrated 16mm machines I've ever worked with... right up there with the EIKI pedestal machines!! Replace it with an Eastman if you ever get the chance to buy one. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-01-2007 08:26 AM                     Ah Mark...ever the minimalist in his approach to "repairs" If it can't be fixed with an Arbor press, then throw it away and use what he thinks is best! I actually agree that the FP16/18 have been over-rated in many respects. This is not to say they are bad but that they do need attention. The skate wears out way too fast in my opinion and and you've already read my post above on the soundhead. Now as to the Kinoton FP38E...that I'll take over any, including Mark's Eastman, machine. This is not to be taken as downplaying the Eastman...the Eastman is a tank and rock solid on its performance but I can get a better picture and better sound out of the Kinoton. I also have no problem with a good claw machine like the Elmo LX series. While certainly not as durable as a Kinoton or Eastman, they can actually put out a very good picture and sound for 16mm. With shrunken film, a 2-perf claw can do very well. What Mark's post or this one has to do with FP18 sound (the original question) is beyond me. So I'll end it with the FP18's sound is wanting and needs regular attention...always has and always will...particularly for infrequent users.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 04-01-2007 10:51 AM                     quote: Steve Guttag ever the minimalist in his approach to "repairs" Of course most know that I am just the opposite of that... and yes, I do carry an arbor press in the van , hopefully you do too. I am just the guy on the threads that is willing to point out junk when I know its junk. The 16mm FP series are definately Phillips worst ever examples of projectors and also the worst price vs. performance package they ever came up with... Mark  |  IP: Logged Alain LeTourneau Film Handler Posts: 37 From: Portland, OR Registered: Jan 2004 posted 04-01-2007 11:54 AM                        Steve et al, Thanks for your assistance. I will be certain to pass this info along to the projectionists at the theater. I hope these suggestions do the trick, as otherwise the presentation looks wonderful. Speaking of FP projectors, the remaining (serious) 16mm projectors in town are all FPs (two 16s, and one 18), so I'm certain I will be back with more questions. -Alain  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 04-01-2007 12:42 PM                        I think it would be fair to say that the FP16/18 is a maintenance-intensive machine - as Steve points out, probably not best suited for a venue where it will either receive infrequent use or where access to tech support is a logistical and/or expense problem. But my experience on both sides of the port glass is that nothing beats a properly looked after FP for picture stability and film friendliness, especially with a decent prime lens and on a large screen.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-01-2007 02:49 PM                     quote: Mark Gulbrandsen I am just the guy on the threads that is willing to point out junk when I know its junk. I tend to classify it as posting your changing opinion as fact and either something is great or junk. Most things in life are somewhere in the middle. The FP18 is not junk. The drive train is pretty solid...the intermittent is just fine (far superior to an Eiki)...the method of framing is not optimal but workable. It is certainly possible to achieve a very high level of performance from the FP18...an ISCO Vario-Kiptaron 20-60mm combined with a well performed lamphouse alignment will go a long way to a great steady picture. Properly setting up the soundhead and then using a good preamp will present a decent enough sound (where on 16mm the prints vary so greatly in sound themselves that achieving good sound can be a challenge in itself). If you are going to run 16mm day after day...the FP16/FP18 will hold up well though the skate will wear out fast and require replacement faster than I think it should. And while an have an arbor press (as well as hydraulic) and many other tools, I do not carry all of them on every job...in fact, in our service area one need not carry much beyond what they will need for that job. Our vans are emptied most every night. Theft prohibts (not to mention temperature extremes) leaving them loaded with every possible tool. No doubt the range (miliage between jobs) you have require a more permanent service type vehicle. Different situations require different approaches.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 04-01-2007 03:28 PM                     quote: Steve Guttag The FP18 is not junk. The drive train is pretty solid...the intermittent is just fine I've never changed my opinion of these projectors since I serviced the first one at Fermilab back in the Midwest . I also disagree on the above line. I've had to rebuild several FP 16mm intermittents over the last 25 years that had the fibre type drunken cam in them, the new style cams are delrin... not a material to write home about either for this sort of use..... also drunken cams in their nature are not really high precision devices that are capable of fine regestration as are stars and cams.... or pin crosses ala Powers for that matter. I've also had to machine new belt idler studs for one of the FP-16's that I service because they were so undersize they actually vibrated and caused the column to sing... that could be heard downstairs. The new larger diameter idler studs turned it into a dead silent mechanism though. Funny... Kinotons suggested "fix" for this was to put MB grease on the belt. Worked fine for about 10 minutes till the grease flew off, also made a mess. Again the whole FP-16/18 package is poor performance vs. price, they were damed expensive machines, and thats really the bottom line. New optics are noce but that doesn't fix the poor verticle regestration or the rather hot running drive motors. In the mechanical world just about anything will last for ever provided it gets constant maintainance... these machiiens require a rediclous amount. I agree on the EIKI though! Vans.... I drive my service van home every night so emergencies can be expedited in a hurry, so do two of our other techs. I rarely need to get parts from the shop.... yea, crime rate where I live is very low. Mark  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 04-02-2007 09:41 AM                     Must be nice to have your service territory all in driving distance  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 04-02-2007 09:55 AM                     It is! I have hadn't had to get on a jet to do service in years. Not that I don't drive ALOT! Over 30,000 mi. a year. Fortunately I enjoy driving and there are ALOT of things to see and do along way.... which I do. I am at or pass near many of the best places in the U.S. to visit at least several times a year. I will be servicing in the Morning in JAckson and hiking the Tetons in the afternoon next week. Mark  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 04-03-2007 07:45 PM                        quote: Steve Guttag Rubber O-ring? What are you talking about Mike...this is not an FP30/38? The FP18 is a 16mm machine...I don't recall any O-rings on it.... Uh...oops, yes, you are right, I somehow thought we are talking about the FP38 here. Apparently not.  |  IP: Logged

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