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This topic comprises 4 pages: 1 2 3 4
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Author
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Topic: Digital sound fixes
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Ron Curran
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 504
From: Springwood NSW Australia
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 08-06-2006 07:56 PM
We all bitch about our problems with digital sound. All formats have issues and all formats have champions. Can anything be done about it?
SDDS
Sony doesn’t support the system so is there any point in our support?
Dolby Digital
FilmGuard will preserve but it can’t be expected to repair a track that is constantly F.
Would it help if Dolby copied the one good Sony idea and had a duplicate track on the opposite side? Or would it suffer simultaneous destruction? Dolby could sell a whole new line of penthouses/basement readers.
As we mostly show second run, this is a real problem for us. I like SRD when it works. The first run of a used print is always nerve-wracking and it is such a relief when it all works. It all depends on where the print came from. Some well-used prints work and some almost new prints fail – on some or all spools.
Also, whose fault is it that the digi doesn’t default cleanly? The “I got it, I ain’t got it” routine was funny when Mel Brooks did it but I don’t laugh when SRD does it. On the rare occasions that DTS defaults, it does a clean break to analog, then picks up again when the stream is clear. Perhaps there is a fix in Dolby’s software.
However, we do get to hear what our SR sounds like when the digital light gets switched off. We forget how nice it can be.
(Aside: I never lost audio from a mag track, though I was told that it was common … geez I loved 4 track mag!)
DTS
We responded to DTS’s query about packaging and we have only had one scratched disc since. I did once receive discs in a spool-shaped pack and that was neat. The point is that a DTS rep followed up with me.
I agree with the main criticism of DTS, poor supply. Again, this is not the fault of DTS. Some film distributors supply discs without fail. Others never ever supply.
Note to DTS: don’t let distributors distribute your product. How about setting up a service where, as soon as a location books in a title (or titles) they e-mail a DTS agent who express-posts discs to that location. The cinema could mail them back after their season. Our mail service is reliable now.
That way, cinemas that don’t run DTS don’t get discs, as happens now. I had occasion to collect a print from a multi and saw a mountain of discs in the corner. None of their screens had DTS players.
Those who speak fluent Dolby could speak to Dolby and those who speak DTS could speak to DTS.
Let’s get the problems solved. We aren’t all abandoning film yet.
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Mark J. Marshall
Film God
Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 08-06-2006 10:54 PM
My understanding is that Dolby does hold the license on the area between other sprocket holes as well, so they could put backup info there, or more tracks, or more bits for the same tracks, or whatever. Lossless sound would be wonderful. Another thing that would be wonderful would be for them to fix the annoying and retarded warbling problem with the CP650. I've brought this up over and over again, and it never gets fixed.
The other day, we started training a new booth guy who had some previous booth experience from another theater. When we told him NOT to run the Dolby, and showed him why, he said, "Yeah, ours made that bouncing sound too at the end of the movie. We never knew what was causing it." Yet another CP650 that warbles. Imagine that. Sooner or later Dolby will fix this problem. Maybe. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 08-07-2006 01:35 PM
I like the idea of DTS supplying discs directly to the theaters to overcome the imcompetence of distributors, but I can imagine that DTS doesn't want to be a logistics company as well as a technology supplier. Setting up a system like Netflix, but for DTS discs, would be an interesting solution to the problem that some theaters have with not getting discs.
However, in this day and age, mailing discs back and forth is unnecessary. The XD10 has an ethernet port on the back of it. If DTS wanted to, the XD10 could be downloading the disc images it needed across the Internet. The knee-jerk response is that "Oh the Internet is too insecure, what about the pirates! Arr!" but the technology exists to transport files securely.
Either solution would most likely solve the problem of getting discs, but the problem either isn't widespread enough to be worth the effort, or someone isn't paying attention to their customers after the sale.
In regards to SDDS, it's a non-issue here in the Wisconsin area. Only one theater within 100-200 miles of Milwaukee has an SDDS installation.
Dolby Digital issues have subsided quite a bit around here. I don't hear too many reel change hiccups any longer, with only pre-credits dropouts being the norm.
I think Bobby is right. The problems these formats have are probably never going to get fixed. If someone in a position to do something was going to do it, they would have done it by now. Digital Cinema is going to make these problems obsolete (by creating issues of their own, no doubt), and it will serve as yet another reason to make the switch.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 08-07-2006 06:42 PM
quote: Lyle Romer
I assume the reason that Dolby never used the other side of the film was due to the cost of the reader and additional video processing. The fact that it runs at 320 kbps when the maximum AC-3 bitrate is exactly double (640 kbps) tells me that originally they planned on using both sides and running at 640 kbps but decided that the difference in quality wasn't worth the several thousand more the system would cost.
Dolby Labs chose the 320kb/s bitrate as a means of acknowledging the limits of high speed 35mm film print production in 1992. You can reduce a square tile of digital bitmap data down to only so small a size and have it print reliably. Further, the CCD imagers in the film readers at that time were only so fast. Dolby felt the 320kb/s setting had the right balance of getting the audio to a good enough quality level while keeping the data spot at a big enough size.
Total data amount in a 35mm SRD track is about 550 kilobits per second. The extra data above that 320kb/s level is used for error correction. Dolby Digital performance in movie theaters improved with introduction of newer readers as well as improvements being made in print production.
Some high end theaters, such as the Northpark 1-2 in Dallas, were able to get reliable performance out of the older Dolby Digital systems because of higher standards in print handling and projection. I watched quite a few Dolby Digital shows in the early to mid 1990s that had reel change drop outs. But I don't recall noticing that problem at Northpark 1-2. Newer Dolby Digital systems are much more tolerant to "average" film handling practices.
To get back to using the other end of the film strip to double the amount of Dolby Digital data, there's no point in doing it now. At best, you're up to 640kb/s. That's still inferior to the new Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby True HD formats, as well as uncompressed Linear PCM 5.1. If Dolby is going to come up with a new generation of Dolby Digital for 35mm film (or other film formats) they'll have to do it by means of a dual system.
quote: Ron Curran
Bobby, I am excited at the possibility of DTS working even better. What should we do to make it happen?
Movie theaters must have the option of downloading CD images. That's the biggest problem for DTS, especially in markets outside the United States. Any theater with a print bearing DTS time code needs to have more than one avenue of getting the discs that go with it, even if they have to burn them to CD-R discs on their own. Further, some movies get little revisions to them. Toy Story 2 had new discs made for the change in outtakes in the end credits. Most theaters in the US received their new 2nd CD. I don't know how well that worked elsewhere.
Many movie theaters are downloading their D-Cinema movies via satellite. An authorized theater downloading a DTS CD image should not be seen by distributors as anything different. It doesn't matter to me if the film distributors would set up their own servers or commission DTS to do it. The ultimate goal should be improving show quality at all theaters playing their product. If a DTS-equipped theater is stuck having to show the movie in optical, then that's a significant problem. It can be solved pretty easily, especially with these new Ethernet equipped DTS-XD10 systems.
The other area where DTS has to improve is providing more avenues of support or ways to upgrade from an older DTS player. I think it's a bad idea to simply discontinue support of certain models, such as the 1993 model DTS-6 with the high dollar SCSI Toshiba CD-ROM drives it boasted. If a theater operator's old DTS system finally gives out after many years of service and then is just an unsupportable door stop, what do you think will happen? That customer may not just order a DTS-XD10 as a replacement. He might order a Dolby CP650 instead.
I'm not exactly sure how DTS can get out of that problem. One idea would be coming up with imaginative ways to "mod" an existing DTS-6 or DTS-6D unit. The system is effectively a rack mount personal computer. It shouldn't be too difficult to change these systems to add more performance and capability.
Long term, DTS has to find ways to stay relevant in commercial movie theaters. I don't know what all they're doing with regard to digital cinema, but they need to form alliances there pretty fast. Dolby is way ahead of them in that regard. I wish DTS could do something to promote 70mm projection on big screens.
Sure, DTS makes a good amount of money in home theater technology. However, a great deal of "legitimacy" as a sound format in home theater is there only by virtue of the same brand name appearing in commercial movie theaters. You see the logo on the movie poster and end credits. In perhaps as little as a year or two, we may see those DTS, Dolby Digital and SDDS logos on posters get replaced with logos for Dolby Digital Cinema, DLP, AccessIT, etc. If DTS is knocked out of that group it can turn into a long term marketing problem for them.
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