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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Is there such a thing as an ENVELOP (overhead or height) channel ? (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Is there such a thing as an ENVELOP (overhead or height) channel ?
Alan Gouger
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 501
From: Bradenton, FL, USA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 06-25-2006 11:00 AM      Profile for Alan Gouger   Author's Homepage   Email Alan Gouger   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just picked up a Smart Mod 7a and in the manual it states it has the matrix to decode the ENVELOP (overhead or height) channel in theatres equipped with overhead speakers.

How many movies have this encoded into the sound track or is this hype. I never really heard of this channel before. Is this an extension of EX ?

Thx.

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Frank Angel
Film God

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From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 06-25-2006 02:48 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yah, there is such a thing, but besides theoretical testing, I don't think it has ever been used on a commecial release. You see, the real problem they found out when they tried to test this system was that they couldn't find enough test subject who had that all-important third ear growing on top of their heads. [Roll Eyes]

This thing about adding more and more channels has gotten a WAY out of control, IMHO. Sony's 8 channles makes you feel positively sensory challenged when you realize you only have those mere two wimpy ears to hear it all with. How will I ever appreciate all those extra channels?

Enough of my sarcasm....maybe someone else knows if this channel-above-the-head has actually been utilized beyond the "wouldn't-this-be-a-kicker-marketing-hook" stage. And you can be sure someone is already thinking about putting a channel UNDER the seats -- they will call it envelope-up-your-butt-surround. [uhoh]

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Richard Hamilton
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Evansville, Indiana
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 - posted 06-25-2006 03:34 PM      Profile for Richard Hamilton   Email Richard Hamilton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Large format films have a discreet overhead channel. On flat screens, it is located above the center channel behind the screen. In domes, it is placed directly above the audience. I have never used a Smart processor for large format, so I don't know if this is what they are referring to.

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Alan Gouger
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Bradenton, FL, USA
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 - posted 06-25-2006 03:41 PM      Profile for Alan Gouger   Author's Homepage   Email Alan Gouger   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Frank Angel
And you can be sure someone is already thinking about putting a channel UNDER the seats -- they will call it envelope-up-your-butt-surround.
[Smile]

Thanks Frank. Thats what I figured.

I can see your channel UNDER the seats idea being a hit in rest rooms with little monitors on the door. For 25cents watch a movie while you crap. Those explosion scenes will really help the process along [Smile]

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Brad Miller
Administrator

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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
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 - posted 06-25-2006 03:46 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Frank Angel
And you can be sure someone is already thinking about putting a channel UNDER the seats -- they will call it envelope-up-your-butt-surround.
It's called subwoofers, and the nice thing is the don't have to be underneath the seating. [Big Grin]

I believe the SA10 had the "overhead" channel output if I'm not mistaken. The "surround" output of that CP45 conversion was to be reserved for overhead audio.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

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From: Annapolis, MD
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 - posted 06-25-2006 04:11 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The SA-TEN indeed had the "extra" channel.

Overhead surrounds have been played with throughout surround's life. Some theatres, even set up by Mike Todd used them. The Colonial Williamsburg Visitor's Center's signature film, The Story of a Patriot has been running with ceiling surrounds for almost 50-years now.

I have never heard a ceiling surround system that I thought worked. Speakers tend to beam so when you are under a speaker it is loud and clear...when you are off to the side you are in a dead zone. Now if you took your ceiling grid and placed a speaker, say an Altec 604, behind each one...yeah you could have a kick-ass ceiling speaker effect and perhaps even do some multi-channel surrounds with it. However, you still really need side and rear speakers to pull the sound in the direction you want. I can see ceiling surrounds helping with an effect like a plane going over the audience's head but not for most surround effects.

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Alan Gouger
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Bradenton, FL, USA
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 - posted 06-25-2006 05:33 PM      Profile for Alan Gouger   Author's Homepage   Email Alan Gouger   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Would the ceiling channel info come from any sound hitting the center and surround at the same time or is it added as a hard channel.

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Mark Lensenmayer
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From: Upper Arlington, OH
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 - posted 06-25-2006 10:28 PM      Profile for Mark Lensenmayer   Email Mark Lensenmayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ioan Allen is quoted as saying that Dolby tested an overhead channel on WE ARE SOLDIERS in the Phoenix area.

quote:
HR: Speaking of which, how is Dolby's overhead audio testing going?

Allen: We're doing a test in Phoenix where we're running an overhead channel on "We Were Soldiers" which has an extra roof channel. "Soldiers" is a film that had a lot of helicopters flying overhead, so it made sense. In 99.9% of films, there is nothing overhead. Low-flying pterodactyl are pretty rare in real life. The earth is flat so most sounds are horizontal to you. That's why you've got two ears on the sides of your head and not an ear on top. So the two ears on the side of your head are focused on the horizontal plane.

Now if you have a limited amount of channel carrying capacity in any medium, from a telephone, a CD, to a film, you have to say, "Where is the most usage going to be?" So you wouldn't waste, say 50% of all your bits on the ceiling channel which is only going to be used in one movie in a thousand.

So you have to say, "What is the best general purpose allocation of channels for most movies?" That would lead you to believe that the concentration should be on the screen, which is where the story is. And then you say to yourself, "Do you need a height channel behind the screen?" And the answer is, as the pictures get bigger, probably yes. This discussion is ongoing.

Bigger screen means you probably need a height element which might lead you to believe you'd need a loudspeaker at the top of the screen which would serve a lot more purpose in most films than having a loudspeaker -- the 'voice of God' -- right over your head. Also, it's going to be a lot easier to maintain than the one on the ceiling. That doesn't mean you rule-out the 'voice of God' speakers. What you do is you then structure a file system, a carrying pipe that says this could be allocated for certain films to a ceiling channel if the theater is so equipped.

Ioan Allen Quoted in Hollywood Reporter

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Richard Fowler
Film God

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From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
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 - posted 06-26-2006 08:37 AM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On the 7A, depending on the selection of CS/OS dip switch and proper amplifier / speaker wiring, will either work in EX surround format or surround / ceiling format for digital sound inputs...the unit has a load of features considering the low price of the system. [Cool]

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Mark J. Marshall
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 - posted 06-26-2006 02:12 PM      Profile for Mark J. Marshall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There are several multiplexes in this area that inadvertantly simulate an overhead channel by having all of their surround speakers in the ceiling. Nothing surrounds you in these theaters. Everything flies over you.

A helicopter that the screen suggests is circling around you actually sounds like its circling above you.

When you're in a forest, instead of surrounding you, all the birds sound like they're right over top of you about to take a crap on your head. I might be prompted to cover my head if the speakers were of a better quality.

I guess someone thought that would sound cool. [Shrug]

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Alan Gouger
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Bradenton, FL, USA
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 - posted 06-26-2006 02:19 PM      Profile for Alan Gouger   Author's Homepage   Email Alan Gouger   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark

Thats a different approach that sounds like for somethings would work very well while for others it would not [Smile]

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Frank Angel
Film God

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 - posted 06-26-2006 04:46 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
The earth is flat so most sounds are horizontal to you. That's why you've got two ears on the sides of your head and not an ear on top.
What did I tell you. [Big Grin]

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

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From: Denver, Colorado
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 - posted 06-26-2006 07:33 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Ioan Allen
The earth is flat
I expect no less from a guy with a silent "o" in the name "Ian".

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Ian Price
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Denver, CO
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 - posted 06-26-2006 07:42 PM      Profile for Ian Price   Email Ian Price   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually Ioan's name sounds like Yo-awn. However it too is Welsh and it also means John just like my name means John.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

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From: Denver, Colorado
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 - posted 06-27-2006 12:08 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Unacceptable.

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