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Author Topic: Recent release prints can look great with good projection! Jerry Axelsson Expert Film Handler Posts: 107 From: Stockholm, Sweden Registered: May 2005 posted 05-19-2006 04:19 PM                     I have been following discussions with people which are complaining about high-speed printing on recent 35mm release prints. I would like to make a comment on this. I pretty much agree that recent release prints can be of varying quality. However, we just got a brand new Ernemann 15 projector at my seven plex for the opening of "THE DA-VINCI CODE". We ran a preview on a Vic 5 to inspect the print. The print looked rather dull on this screening. Given that optics are 1 year old Schneider lenses and proper screen illumination. When we started the large house and our Ernemann 15 the image was very good using the same print. Image stability was perfect and the focus was sharp and revealed even more detail due to this. We use the same type of lenses on both projectors. Now I love the fact the recent prints look "alive" and "crisp" again. I love film and fear the day of going digital when I have seen this. Who said that dvd and a cheap DLP projector looked close to a recent 35 mm print.....? I think not! Catch a pristine print at a theater with a good projection set-up and you will not even consider if a cheap home theater set-up is close to good 35 mm projection. Jerry G. Axelsson  |  IP: Logged Larry Myers Master Film Handler Posts: 371 From: Herndon, VA, USA Registered: Jan 2001 posted 05-19-2006 05:05 PM                 This is a very interesting issue. That is the same print looks different when shown on two different projectors. What you are seeing is correct. I am also sure if the lab shipped 5 copies all made from different production days, you would also see a difference between each print using the same machine. This is the mix and match I am talking about and could actually be graphed on paper. Now overlap DVD production and the various ways to play the DVD and plot that on another graph line. These lines could actually meet and cross. That's when film is better then DVD's and DVD's are better then film. So both are right. AHHH!! the science and politics of photography.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 05-19-2006 05:18 PM                     Cheap DLP??? Where???  |  IP: Logged Brian Guckian Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 594 From: Dublin, Ireland Registered: Apr 2003 posted 05-19-2006 07:50 PM                     Film provides a very beautiful, natural image when it's done properly. I was watching parts of "The Da Vinci Code" and "Prime" today and they looked really great; sharp and pleasing to the eye and with depth to the images. "Walk The Line" was another recent release here that really shone. We don't hear the adjectives "beautiful" and "natural" in the world of D-Cinema. It's a different medium, about "content" and images as commodities. It's like painting in oils and then using an airbrush...two distinct media with their own strengths and weaknesses. quote: I love film and fear the day of going digital when I have seen this. {italics added} But this is the power of the brainwashing that has been going on for several years now. It is the false notion that somehow digital is better than, and will naturally succeed film. But if that's true, then how come musicians in orchestras today are still playing centuries-old instruments? How is it that artists are still using oils, gouache and other traditional media? Why are we still reading "analogue" newspapers and books? Heck, why don't the digital evangelists just digitise themselves? I mean, they did it in Tron ! Think of all that money that would be saved in terms of living costs, food, transport, health, you name it! Just scan yourself in and all your problems are solved...  |  IP: Logged Alan Gouger Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 501 From: Bradenton, FL, USA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 05-19-2006 08:47 PM                        Years ago a local friend and I both had similar setups in our private screening rooms. I was the one always trying new projectors and swapping things out. We both shared the same brand lamp house and I had always had better(newer)lens then he. While I tried everything from a Simplex E7 to a Brenkart to a Century then a Simplex XL he stayed with his old Simplex Standard. It was old. We have both had eprad sword systems and when I was done screening a print I would take the large reel over to his place so he could watch it. I was always puzzled by the fact regardless what equipment I had I never could match the picture he was getting from his setup. It was razor sharp with perfect focus and a steady image. My focus never looked as good as his. I would sit in amazement watching the same print on his setup. Seeing this difference in picture quality between his setup and mine is what keep me trying new things in my setup thinking I will sooner or later replace the week link giving me the same picture quality but it never happened. For what ever reason had a lucky combination and stayed with it.  |  IP: Logged Christian Appelt Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 505 From: Frankfurt, Germany Registered: Dec 2001 posted 05-20-2006 10:14 AM                     These days, I tend to forget how good 35mm film can look. But IMHO the studios/distributors are killing the film experience, not the theatres. Here in Germany, it seems DA VINCI CODE was released mostly in grainy, unsharp release prints, at least that has been discussed in our projectionist's forum. I suppose they ruined the movie in IP/IN stages already, because there was not enough time to follow the proper printing procedure (John Pytlak explained this a number of times). The print I watched for about 10 minutes was "sub-16mm quality", and the best projection equipment cannot compensate this.  |  IP: Logged Larry Myers Master Film Handler Posts: 371 From: Herndon, VA, USA Registered: Jan 2001 posted 05-20-2006 10:28 AM                 Again a mix and match of issues that can get very confusing when experts get together and talk about it. So what one person sees the other doesn't. It's not that one is wrong or the other is a jerk. Saying the other guy is the jerk seems like something we all like to do. In reality, it's all due to a wide range of qualities with both the films themselves and the projector systems in use. About 150 years ago they named this quality control. That is, understanding the science of variability. It comes from making guns for the civil war and beer for the citizens so they could put up with the war.  |  IP: Logged Jerry Axelsson Expert Film Handler Posts: 107 From: Stockholm, Sweden Registered: May 2005 posted 05-20-2006 05:22 PM                     In response to the question about the person which claimed that a cheap dlp and dvd came close to recent release prints. Take a look at the Jeff Joseph´s forum and you get the idea... I really love everything I have seen in our new Ernemann 15. Even so-so prints like MISSION IMPOSSIBLE III looked better than the Vic 5:s screenings in the Ernemann. The image is very steady, calm and at the same time distinct with super detail. I have seen almost the same picture quality on an older Ernemann 8B from the 60:s at a local art house cinema. They have older lenses and another lamp house make than we got so the comparison is not fair. The technician which installed our projector claimed that the Ernemann 15 had an edge over Cinemeccanica V5 and the Kinoton D-series. The Ernemann 15 has a direct driven shutter which is synched to the intermittent through a gearbox with a steel transmission. It is not hard to see why this can be more precise and last longer than a separately driven intermittent and shutter like with Cinemeccanica´s rubber belts or Kinoton´s chain drive. Our supplier sells both Kinoton and Ernemann. I am pleased that we decided on the Ernemann.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-20-2006 07:48 PM                     Oh, I'll put the Kinoton up against the Ernemann any day. The Kinoton will beat it pretty easily in just about all respects. And whom ever told you that the Kinoton shutter is driven by a chain is very mistaken. The Kinoton D series has the shutter driven via gear right off of the intermittent. The only chain in the Kinoton D series drive the sprockets. In fact, the D series Kinoton has even the motor drive the intermittent directly...no belts or chains even there. I don't want to you to feel bad about your recent purchase...just want to defend the Kinoton for it is the superior machine.  |  IP: Logged Larry Myers Master Film Handler Posts: 371 From: Herndon, VA, USA Registered: Jan 2001 posted 05-20-2006 08:21 PM                 See what I mean about variability. This projector is better then that but any film presentation at any theater is the best it can be and never as bad as a DVD in a home projector. It's kinda like a self serving religion. Well guess what? Quality is all over the place with film and quality is all over the place with DVD's. Since human visual response is somewhat narrow, a DVD/film cross is out there as sure as God made little green apples.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 05-20-2006 09:42 PM                     Larry, are you ever going to contribute anything useful to this forum other than your ridiculous babble? You may have been well educated on optics, but you clearly know damn near nothing about the realities of motion picture projection and why the optics are far from the only thing that matters in the final projected image (and yes, I am speaking of resolution as well as the other image variables). If anyone thinks release prints can't look good, get your uninformed butt down to Houston and check out the newly opened Studio Movie Grill theater. I will put the images there up against any other theater in the world. For those familiar with the now extinct GCC Northpark 1&2 in Dallas...this theater is superior to even that standard.  |  IP: Logged Larry Myers Master Film Handler Posts: 371 From: Herndon, VA, USA Registered: Jan 2001 posted 05-20-2006 10:04 PM                 Well Brad that's all part of the VARIABILITY. I am sure your right. That the Studio Movie Grill shows top quality film. That does NOT mean a theater on main street in Mansfield Ohio does the same. That's the whole thing about variability. Things vary. That is, things vary from really bad quality to really good quality and anything in the middle. It varies from the East Coast to the West Coast. From North to South. The real reality and a big problem for film the way I see it, is it's weakness to image quality variability. On the other hand, pro digital may not as good as film but I am sure just like general TV picture quality, it will be mostly the same. Same bad but same none the less. In other words less variability. Standard Oil got it's name in the late 1800's generally because the oil was standard. Kinda new concept at the time.  |  IP: Logged John Koutsoumis Master Film Handler Posts: 261 From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Registered: Aug 2003 posted 05-21-2006 01:08 AM                     quote: Brad Miller If anyone thinks release prints can't look good, get your uninformed butt down to Houston and check out the newly opened Studio Movie Grill theater. I will put the images there up against any other theater in the world. Yeah but the question is do current release prints look as good as they really should? I think not. Yeah I've seen fantastic looking prints in the multiplexes but it varies. Mind you this observation is in the same auditorium. Yet one does have to take in consideration the projection set up and also how the film was photographed. Experiencing 35mm in cinemas is like chalk and cheese. You don't know what you are going to get from title to title, location to location.  |  IP: Logged Jerry Axelsson Expert Film Handler Posts: 107 From: Stockholm, Sweden Registered: May 2005 posted 05-21-2006 03:05 AM                     Steve thanks for the update on the Kinoton. I actually voted for a Kinoton before we dicided on the Ernemann. I am really glad we got that Vic 5 out of the booth in our premiere house. It was 15 years old approx, but it gave us much less trouble than the 10 year old Vic 5:s in the same plex.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 05-21-2006 04:11 AM                     quote: John Koutsoumis Yeah but the question is do current release prints look as good as they really should? That's a good question with the key word being "should". High speed release prints here in the US from Technicolor, if printed from a quality negative (such as most movies from Buena Vista inparticular) look damned good. I would say that they probably could not look any better being that it IS a release print (not an EK from the original negative). On the other hand, I am still routinely disappointed with the printing quality from Deluxe Toronto. Every print is nothing but a constant bobbing up and down through the entire movie and I never got a straight answer as to why the Toronto lab ALWAYS has the shakes yet the Deluxe lab in California (although not as good as Technicolor) does not suffer from the bouncing as bad. Meanwhile Technicolor's release prints are often damn near as steady as PA35. All projection equipment aside, remember that any shaking in the image does cut into the perceived resolution. As such, Deluxe prints are not as "sharp" to the human eye. Perhaps our Atlab friend can explain why there is a consistent difference in labs. Getting back on the subject, anyone in the Houston area send me an email in the next week or two and I will arrange for passes.  |  IP: Logged

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