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Author Topic: 16mm endless loop equipment
Phillip Grace
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 164
From: ACMI. Melbourne. Australia.
Registered: Mar 2004


 - posted 05-01-2006 02:48 AM      Profile for Phillip Grace   Email Phillip Grace   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does anybody know of a source, or a design, for a looping device to run about 800ft of 16mm film? This thing has to run unattended for extended periods, so it would need to be very reliable. Any suggestions welcome. (Sadly "Dont Do It" is not an option. [Wink]

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 05-01-2006 03:56 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have seen two designs of 16mm loop equipment; unfortunately your requirements would seem to rule out both of them.

The first consists of attachments which clamp onto the spool arms of the projector; these hold a long bar, maybe a 1.5 metres or so long. Mounted on this bar are two short vertical bars, which can be moved along the long bar to adjust the spacing between them. The short vertical bars each have several rollers mounted on them, and the film is laced back and forth around these rollers. The commercially produced one which we had where I used to work had six rollers at each end I think, giving 12 x 1.5m, plus another metre or two through the projector and back up again, giving a maximum film length of about 20 metres. This is a long way short of the length you require. It would be quite easy to make one of these devices, and you could make it larger, but it would have to be very large to handle 800 feet of film. The device was quite reliable while running, but was quite difficult to lace up without the film slipping off some of the rollers, and thus getting dirty and scratched. These problems would be worse on a very large unit.

The other type I have seen was made by Elf, the name under which Eiki projectors were imported and sold in the UK. This consisted of a sort of table consruction, with a horizontal turntable on top. This would handle the length of film you require, but there is a problem. The film unwound from the centre and took up on the outside, or vica versa, I can't remember which, rather like the old 50 foot Technicolor 8mm loop cartridges. The film was a simple circular coil, not the star-shaped system used on 35mm endless loop platters, and so the film had to rub against itself to accommadate the different daimeters at different points in the coil. This caused serious wear and scratching of the film, and the thing was also prone to frequent jamming, and so would fail your requirement for high reliability. Depending on how long you were going to use this for you would need to replace the print quite frequently. These things were made for triacetate prints; old diacetate ones seemed to be even worse. I don't know how they would behave with modern polyester stock. Polyester does seem to scratch quite easily; you would not have frequent film breakage, as was common with triacetate, but that cause other problems if the thing jammed. You would probably have to install extra fail-safe devices if you were running it unattended.

It might be possible to adapt a 35mm endless-loop platter to run 16mm film, but these take a lot of space, and also have reliability and film wear issues, read what Leo has said about them in the past, though these are probably not as bad as those on the Elf 16mm unit.

You say 'Don't do it' is not an option, but I think you should consider at least two alternatives:

Have a high quality digital transfer made from the best available film elements, and run this from either a DVD or a hard disk. If you play in on a computer you are not limited to the normal PAL or NTSC resolutions, but can use something better. This is expensive; are you workig n a low, or zero, budget?

Have a number of 16mm prints made, splice several together on each of two spools. Run these on a conventional 16mm projector, and rewind one spool while the other is running. This is also expensive, as you have to have several prints made, though they should last a long time, and you need an operator to change reels, and rewind film. Is this for a short-term event, like an exhibition, or something permanent, like a museum? What size picture do you need? Is there some reason why the show has to be run on film?

Finally, what is the film you will be running? If it's some rare or irreplacable element, like a Kodachrome camera original, don't let it anywhere near any sort of endless loop device.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 05-01-2006 05:02 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Stephen Furley
These things were made for triacetate prints; old diacetate ones seemed to be even worse. I don't know how they would behave with modern polyester stock. Polyester does seem to scratch quite easily; you would not have frequent film breakage, as was common with triacetate, but that cause other problems if the thing jammed. You would probably have to install extra fail-safe devices if you were running it unattended.
We installed one of these inside the shell of a Panoram (16mm 'video jukebox' from the 1940s) for the History of the Pop Video exhibition at MOMI in the early '90s. The original RCA endless loop projector was simply too unreliable with modern acetate prints, the main symptom being that the film kept breaking at the end/beginning join (it didn't like either tape or cement joins). Our best guess at the time was that the mechanism was really designed for diacetate or propionate (most 16mm stock was propionate in the early '40s), and couldn't cope with the slightly thicker triacetate.

We had a polyester reversal dupe made by Soho Images from the print we originally had, and after that it worked without any problems.

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Dick Vaughan
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1032
From: Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 05-01-2006 05:16 AM      Profile for Dick Vaughan   Author's Homepage   Email Dick Vaughan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
WE used to run a whole stack of 16mm endless loop projectors in the museum here in Bradford from 1983 -1997.

They were special built units based on Bell & Howell projectors using a system similar to the Elf one described by Stephen.

they were designed and built by a guy called Jack Nissen whose company Museum Electronics was pretty closely associated with the Ontario Science Centre in Toronto.Thismay well be the same company given it's geographical proximity. I doubt they still manufacture this unit as back in the mid 90's they were having problems sourcing new projectors.

The film fed from the centre and took up on the outside. We exclusively used polyester stock.

The projector and endless loop table was housed in side a pretty tightly sealed box with filtered fans pulling air in and exhausting hot air air from the lamp.

The units were pretty reliable as I recall.

Good luck

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 05-01-2006 06:50 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Depending on if ANY rewind time is allowed, Kinoton's FP38ES and FP38ECII projectors can be automated such that they will show the film, rewind and then reshow the film indefinately.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-01-2006 08:17 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
An 800-foot "loop cabinet" for 16mm would be very feasible:

http://www.kinotonamerica.com/cinemaEquipment/LC35SP.asp

quote:
Kinoton manufactures several models of loop cabinets:

- LC 35 SP loop cabinet for a maximum of 656 feet (200 m) of 35 mm film

- LC 70 SP loop cabinet for a maximum of 689 feet (210 m) of 70 mm film

- LC 70 LP loop cabinet for a maximum of 1,312 feet (400 m) of 70 mm film


http://www.ctmsolutions.com/debrie_en_les_produits.php?id=27

quote:
loop cabinet
looper

film capacity: 25-120 meters
Looper is designed for commercials, trailer prints or any short length original that needs to be printed several times. Connected to a printing machine, it allows for the printing of an unlimited quantity of prints, without having to stop, rewind and replace the original after each print. There are 2 cabinets - one for image & one for sound – which can be connected to the same printer. The printer was conceived for printing films of a fairly short length.

maximum speed: 1000 feet/min
There are four lines of upper rollers, each mounted on ball bearings. The film drive is servo-controlled by a DC motor to survey and insure film tension levels. The use of special ball bearings allows for a great increase in speed along with a great decrease in the amount of maintenance required.

anti-dust system
The matter used for the fabrication of rollers assures their functioning without producing dust. The LOOPER is equipped with a pressurization system. The interior of the cabinet is maintained at a constant pressure and the entering air is filtered for impurities and dust.



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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001


 - posted 05-01-2006 09:12 AM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Loop cabinet design is better for presentation if space permits. The cabinet also allows space to put an air squeegee or other device for film cleaning; if you are familiar with the size of a typical 44 space audio cabinet, that net space can handle 400 feet of film. The endless loop units for 16mm projectors generally worked well for presentations under 10 minutes with polyester prints that where specially lubricated. I recently speced a project for an art museum to do endless loop 35mm or HD video via hard drive. Film was preferred due to color and contrast issue. The 35mm hardware rental was lower than HD but over a three month period, maintinance issues where much higher for film....so HD was used.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 05-01-2006 10:08 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Phillip, if you don't have the endless loop equipment, procuring it and making it work for you (which sounds like it simply won't work given your 800ft requirement), why not transfer the film to DVD and get ahold of a decent consumer DLP projector and just play it that way. DVD will repeat endlessly. DVD quality via a DLP projector might not be quite what 16mm will give you, but depending on how critical the viewing situation is, this may be your best, cheapest and most reliable alternative.

Just a thought.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 05-01-2006 10:49 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Note, the Kinoton rewinding projectors can also be outfitted with film cleaners (anti-static/vacuum) as well as PTR types though though I'm not a fan of PTRs in this application since they will not have the opportunity to be cleaned enough. An advantage of the anit-static/vacuum method would be two cleanings per showing.

BTW...DVDs really NOT that high a image quality...480 is just 480 and it shows on all but the smallest of screens (consumer TVs)...as one gets into even moderately large screens, their lack of image quality really does fall apart upon close inspection. If the audience in this application has the viewer as fractions of a screen height, DVDs will not look that impressive.

16mm could have both image quality and reasonable long-term cost.

Steve

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Robert E. Allen
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1078
From: Checotah, Oklahoma
Registered: Jul 2002


 - posted 05-01-2006 02:43 PM      Profile for Robert E. Allen   Email Robert E. Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You migh also try www.robertfilm.com. He specializes in 16mm.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-01-2006 10:56 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
there used to be the very popular gantz loopers

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Phillip Grace
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 164
From: ACMI. Melbourne. Australia.
Registered: Mar 2004


 - posted 05-08-2006 11:29 PM      Profile for Phillip Grace   Email Phillip Grace   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks all for your response, especially the information about polyester film base.
The loop projection is part of an art work, and the projector and film image are actually part of the aesthetic. I think the whole thing is to run continuously. The screen is to be quite small, so the whole thing would be well within the capability of a looped DVD and LCD screen or plasma display, but this is not to be.
I would prefer to go with a looping cabinet because of the undoubted low film wear and high reliability. There was an installation at an exhibition here which ran a 12 minute 35mm program under fully automatic control for months on end, using a powered loop cabinet. It was quiet too. I think the projector was a Kinoton. If the artist will agree, or if space allows we would prefer to go this way, and have been working out the most compact roller and rack arrangements for the cabinet. Loops inside loops etc. (It would be lovely if the thing could be installed inside a bell tower). The construction of a cabinet would be pretty elaborate, and I suspect that the budget wont go too far - which is usually the case. Dual rewinding projectors under automatic control would be in the same realm, unfortuately.
The solution we are working on at the moment involves running two small capacity endless loop devices in cascade. We've come across a very reliable home-built unit sourced from Amsterdam, which will take about 400' of 16mm. I'm pretty confident that if each of them is set up inside an isolated loop of film, they will both run properly. This could be done using driven sprockets on the projector, and/or some creative threading, or an idler sprocket on the looper itself, which feeds film into the loop on one side, being driven by the film being pulled out of the loop on the other side. A similar set-up to the old magnetic penthouse. This should also result in a very compact arrangement. It sounds a bit like double-jeopardy, and trying to work out the difference in film friction of one large unit versus two small ones made my brain hurt.
I'll report back if it works. Otherwise it will never be heard of again.
Cheers. [Smile]

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Jack Ondracek
Film God

Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002


 - posted 05-08-2006 11:47 PM      Profile for Jack Ondracek   Author's Homepage   Email Jack Ondracek   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The one example of endless loop technology that I was exposed to in my early career was (God help me for even bringing this up here!)... in a porn theatre in Seattle! [evil]

This was one of the Seattle local's ways of making new projectionists "pay their dues"... and I spent about 2 weeks at the place.

This place had "viewing booths" with reverse-projection screens. A 16mm projector sat in the bottom, and projected up through a periscope.

I don't remember much about the projector, other than that the concept was similar to the way a tape cartridge worked... pulling the film from the center of the roll, and winding back around the outside. The films were old, but were in reasonably decent shape. What I do remember about them was that the films had to be frequently taken to a cleaner in the basement. It had a huge ventillator hood & used some kind of real nasty cleaner, based on tricloroethane. The films had to be run through the system frequently to keep them from scratching and jamming.

Having worked around that sort of arrangement, I'd sure look at a looping cabinet!

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Robert E. Allen
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1078
From: Checotah, Oklahoma
Registered: Jul 2002


 - posted 05-09-2006 08:48 PM      Profile for Robert E. Allen   Email Robert E. Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jack:

You're not the only one who "paid their dues" that way. I worked a porno house on one of Seattle's downtown side streets. There were two B&H 16mm in the closed balcony shooting to a split screen. No dialog. Just canned music which I controlled. Half the screen was for straights and half for homosexuals. I don't remember the name of the place or how long I was there. I also worked the Wintergarden where we featured Virginia "Fifty Thousand Dollar Treasure Chest" West. She couldn't act to save her life. But then I'm sure the guys never got their eyes off her chest.

Sorry 'bout hyjacking the thread guys.

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Marc-Antoine Morel
Film Handler

Posts: 1
From: Ottawa, ON , Canada
Registered: Dec 2004


 - posted 05-14-2006 03:38 PM      Profile for Marc-Antoine Morel   Email Marc-Antoine Morel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi,

I've used a number of the Robert Film Services loopers Robert E. Allen refers to and although somewhat of a pain to set up, once "balanced" I've run some, with non technical staff turning the projector on and off everyday, for litterally months at a time in an art museum.

Marc-Antoine

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