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Author Topic: How do you build a print when the leaders are all out of order. Alan Gouger Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 501 From: Bradenton, FL, USA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 04-25-2006 10:10 AM                        Now that my private screening room is finally ready I grabbed something from my collection ( never screened ) for my very first screening. I open the box and all 5 reels had those nice paper rapping with the reel number ect. I thought very nice. Upon removing this band some of the reels were tail first while a few others were heads first. Then there was a long clear leader with handwriting on it that had a different reel number labeled completely different then the paper band. Beyond that leader came the countdown leader on each reel who's reel number were different again. What a disaster. Its easy to tell the first and end reels by looking at a few frames for the intro and ending credits but how do you tell what follows when you cannot count on the leaders. I took a guess and ended up with reel 3 and 4 out of order. On the bench I looked at the end and beginning of each reel looking for any consistency in a scene that may help but reel one to reel two jumped to a completely different scene during reel change so I could not count on that. What do you do? Thanks.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-25-2006 11:03 AM                        For recent releases, you can see the first and last picture frames of each reel on the "Reel ID" section of Film-Tech, or use the reel ID service provided by Technicolor Entertainment for the prints they handle. For old collectors prints, you could match the action to a DVD or video release of the film. In some really old prints (before the days of digital sound printed along the edges), the lab may have edgeprinted a reel ID and maybe even a sequential footage number. If the countdown leaders actually came from the same print, you may be able to use the unique manufacturer's ID printed in magenta along the edge of the film every meter or so to match up the leader to the reel it was originally part of.  |  IP: Logged Alan Gouger Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 501 From: Bradenton, FL, USA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 04-25-2006 11:21 AM                        quote: John Pytlak For old collectors prints, you could match the action to a DVD or video release of the film. In some really old prints (before the days of digital sound printed along the edges), the lab may have edgeprinted a reel ID and maybe even a sequential footage number. Edge printed reel ID or footage numbers would be ideal. Ill have a look. Just now going through this I would wish edge id or footage numbers would be a standard feature even on new prints. Because Im a private collector I do not have the leisure of using Technicolors services. Thanks for the tips John.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-25-2006 11:32 AM                        quote: Alan Gouger Just now going through this I would wish edge id or footage numbers would be a standard feature even on new prints. This is a continuing item of discussion in industry groups like the Inter-Society Committee for the Enhancement of Cinema Presentation, but the issue boils down to where/how you can print the information without interfering with the digital soundtracks used today.  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 04-25-2006 11:36 AM                        It's usually pretty easy to tell if two reels go together by looking at the soundtrack. If a lot of the film has been chopped by projectionists over the years, it's not so easy but still can (in some cases) be done.  |  IP: Logged Brad Allen Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 688 From: Evansville, IN, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 04-25-2006 11:56 AM                     There is always the trial and error method. Run it, watch it, and hopefully, you can tell what is out of order and what isn't.  |  IP: Logged Alan Gouger Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 501 From: Bradenton, FL, USA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 04-25-2006 12:23 PM                        Sorting this out is taking more then one evening ( longer then I expected ) and as frustrating as it is I am not in the business so I have the luxury of taking my time but I feel for the projectionists working within a time schedule who got stuck with such a project. I bet you'd like to get your hands on the guy who last broke down the print.  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 04-25-2006 12:44 PM                        If SDDS would go ahead and DIE, we could go back to edge ID like before. Louis  |  IP: Logged Cory Isemann Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 500 From: White Plains, MD, USA Registered: Jun 2004 posted 04-25-2006 01:26 PM                        quote: Louis Bornwasser If SDDS would go ahead and DIE, we could go back to edge ID like before. HAHA I was just going to say the same thing.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-25-2006 01:30 PM                     Just to be contrary...Run the SDDS track and let the decoder TELL you what the reel is! (also possible in DTS XD10 units). In truth though...the edge numbers are printed on SDDS film in magenta.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-25-2006 01:48 PM                        quote: Steve Guttag In truth though...the edge numbers are printed on SDDS film in magenta. Kodak uses sophisticated green laser recording technology to print those edgenumbers when the print film is perforated. Probably cost-prohibitive to implement similar technology on hundreds of lab printers around the world. Before digital tracks, all that was needed to put reel number and sequential footage numbers on the prints was to ink the numbers on the printing negative, and use the edgelight on the printer.  |  IP: Logged Bruce McGee Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1776 From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular. Registered: Aug 1999 posted 04-25-2006 03:22 PM                     I really like getting prints for the collection with the heads and tails randomly attached, or sometimes just thrown in the box and crushed by the shipping company. Sure. It always makes me leery of the seller in the future... unless it was revealed to me before the sale/trade. I only have a soundtrack reader for checking my 35 stuff. I've only had one occasion to attach the wrong head to a reel and run it. Glad I still run 2000 footers. Nobody saw the boo-boo but me, and I dont tell!  |  IP: Logged Alan Gouger Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 501 From: Bradenton, FL, USA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 04-25-2006 04:58 PM                        Is there such a thing as just a sound reader. Are they small and portable. This would be nice to have on the make up table. Sure would help trouble shoot things when needed. How much?  |  IP: Logged Floyd Justin Newton Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 559 From: Phoenix, Arizona, USA Registered: Jun 2002 posted 04-25-2006 07:06 PM                     Available just about everywhere; Flea-bay, auctions, supply houses. $0.00 - $300.00+. 16/35 or both.  |  IP: Logged Phillip Grace Expert Film Handler Posts: 164 From: ACMI. Melbourne. Australia. Registered: Mar 2004 posted 04-25-2006 11:59 PM                     I had a similar problem a few months ago. Fortunately the heads and tails which arrived with the print were the originals. There was enough edge-print information on the film to enable the cut ends to be matched with the correct rolls. The information I used was Kodak's own latent image manufacturing symbols. The local Kodak representative explained which numbers are applied progressively. So looking at the film as a whole it was possible to work out what went where. Plan B would have been to screen the thing and have someone watch it, which was least desirable because of the resources involved.  |  IP: Logged

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