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Author Topic: cyan tracks and white-light readers Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-25-2006 06:46 PM                        I've recently tried playing cyan tracks (from two different features and assorted trailers) on various types of soundheads using white-light exciter lamps. The result was, in essence (and with apologies to the "Freedom Rock" commercial) as follows: Hippie #1: "Hey, man, is that a cyan track?" Hippie #2: "Yeah, man!" Hippie #1: "Well, turn it up, man!" For the most part, the cyan tracks sounded perfectly good, though the level was much lower than it would typically be with a silver track, which was easily solved by turning up the fader a couple of notches. Unfortunately, lab splices become much louder than normal as a result and must be removed to avoid blowing speakers and bursting eardrums. The results were consistent across three types of soundheads (Simplex 5-Star, Western Electric, and MP-30 portable projectors) and different types of sound systems (Kelmar mono system, Dolby CP65 with A-type NR configured for mono, and a wacky homemade setup involving microphone preamps and no NR). I haven't yet had the chance to try this with a full-blown Dolby Stereo system yet, but expect that the results would be similar. Has anyone else tried to play cyan tracks with white-light readers, and were the results similar to mine? Obviously, the cyan tracks were noisier than silver tracks, but I didn't find them to be offensively so. If I were running a theatre on a tight budget and had only mono sound, I'm not sure that I would think that the LED upgrade would be worthwhile. And I say this as one who is usually an advocate for improved picture and sound quality. Comments? Experiences?  |  IP: Logged Dominic Espinosa Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1172 From: Boulder Creek, CA. Registered: Jan 2004 posted 01-25-2006 07:00 PM                     quote: Scott Norwood If I were running a theatre on a tight budget and had only mono sound, I'm not sure that I would think that the LED upgrade would be worthwhile. You'd be on a budget because your theater is running on mono and being outperformed by the megaplex down the street or up the freeway. Truth be told, in my experience the switch from white light to red LED is a cheap enough upgrade for years of improved service and quality.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-25-2006 09:22 PM                     We still have three or four locations that have not converted over yet. One is a drive in near Idaho Falls and the rest are hard tops scattered over a wide area... all mono of course with owners that don't take theor buisness seriously. I am going to be doing one of the hard tops in a couple of weeks. I don't even want to hear how they sound before they are converted over to red! Mark  |  IP: Logged Pete Naples Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1565 From: Dunfermline, Scotland Registered: Feb 2001 posted 01-26-2006 03:42 AM                     *Awaits the arrival of Steve G. to tell you why red is WRONG!*  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 01-26-2006 09:24 AM                        Very interesting, Scott. I was under the impression, from the way peeps talk about the need for red, that using white exciter would result in practically NO sound and when you turned THAT up enough to hear it, what you WOULD hear would be total trash, especially the noise. In other words, the noise floor, in theory, should be up around the ceiling somewhere with the audio burried in hissy, crackling garbage beneath it. But you are saying the sound was clean?, just lower volume, correct? You only needed to push up the level a couple of points? Maybe it will turn out that this is one of those things that in theory SHOULDN'T work, but does; the electronic gods put those kinds of anomolies in place just to piss-off the smart-ass techies. Like playing old films without the Academy curve which I did for years when I was using one of those home-brew optical stereo playback concoctions (as you apparantely did too!). Every sound engineer I sat down to evaluate film sans-Academy filter said the non-Academy playback sounded just fine. In fact, without the rolloff filter it sounded better than the same film played with the curve in. Hell, in the early days, before we could afford a real Dolby unit (non-profit, your know....emphasis on NON), I made my own stereo with surround playback system. I got my hands on Kelmar stereo cells, canabalized 2 high-end mic preamps out of Roger Meyer studio console modules, grabbed an original (I am talking about the very first NR/A model when Dolby was only in recording studios quiteing down analog 2 channel Ampex and Scully tape transports), a consumer Dolby A decoder for the surround, 3 Art 1/3rd octave studio eqs for the screen channels, an Art 1 octave eq for the surround with the surround extracted by a Sansui Type II studio matric decoder, and as the piece de resistance, a DBX 115 Subharominc Enhancement unit just for that gonad-vibrating effect we love so much. Believe it or not, this system sounded awesome and by virtue of the old Dolby A unit, I STILL got to call it "Dolby Stereo." When I told cinema techs about it, they said scoffed and mocked....until they heard it. One even commented that it sounded better than the famed NYC's Zeigfeld. It's always nice to have bragging rights. And hey, Pete, I look forward to Steve's kick-ass, exquisitly crafted, anti-cyan rant over my morning cup of coffee, as well as John P. always polite, gentlemanly rebuttal. What would I do without this site in the mornings?!  |  IP: Logged Christos Mitsakis Expert Film Handler Posts: 242 From: Ag.Paraskevi, ATHENS, GREECE Registered: Sep 1999 posted 01-26-2006 12:12 PM                     Philips FP56, CP65 before laser conversion, tried "Pooh's Heffalump Movie". Sound as a wisper even with fader at 10. Things got better when turned preamp all the way up and fader still at 10. But guess..distortion and, strange, only slight noise. Better results with cheap custom sound system consisting of soundcraft console, home processor for matrix decoding and separate amps. Setting gain with dolby tone, then by adjusting console's main fader and processor's main fader I got pleasing results and of course loud thumps at splices indeed very anoying and dangerous to speakers. It worked for three features last summer (the rest were high-magenta) at a reduced output level not to blow the speakers. I wouldn't recomend such a solution. There are many possibilities out now to convert at a slight cost. Christos.  |  IP: Logged Peter Mork Expert Film Handler Posts: 181 From: Newton, MA, USA Registered: Jun 2002 posted 01-26-2006 10:42 PM                     When I tried cyan with white light (old mono RCA head) the result was very noisy - unacceptably so. This was a used print, and I reckon whether you can get away with it depends a lot on the condition of the track. I sure wouldn't bet on getting good results every time. I've been using the Jeff Stricker homebrew red LED in both our mono houses for over a year, and recommend it. Costs $10 to make and performs like a champ. My version uses a standard exciter lamp base, and can be removed. I made a spare to tote with me to places I may work where one is needed (the Foxboro Orpheum, say).  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-26-2006 11:26 PM                        Interesting; are the dye tracks more susceptible to wear and damage than silver tracks? (So far, we haven't received a cyan print at Foxboro...knock on wood!)  |  IP: Logged Marin Zorica Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 671 From: Biograd na Moru, Croatia Registered: May 2003 posted 01-27-2006 04:34 PM                     Before summer season start i told friend whose run one smaller place that he must convert to cyan because lot's of movies gonna be in Cyan, special that couple of popular what gets money. So he told me that one projectionist played cyan on standard reader with white exciter lamp (latter i heard audience was unsatisfied with movie) and he tell that is good without red reader, and he wont convert this season. When this mine friend get first cyan print he called me and ask "is this cyan film means that this is print you told me about something must convert in sound head, i tell him YES and that he try to play that print" that was late in night, next morning he called me and ask when I have time to convert his projector to red light reader!  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-27-2006 06:48 PM                     I don't care what Guttag says about red light readers. It is still alot better than exciter lamps, slit lenses and solor cells! Mark  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 01-30-2006 01:18 PM                        quote: Scott Norwood Interesting; are the dye tracks more susceptible to wear and damage than silver tracks? Not really. But reverse scan optics are somewhat more specular, which helps their frequency response, but is more sensitive to picking up surface dirt and abrasions as "crackle and pops". And if you are reading a cyan track with a tungsten reader, the signal level is so much lower that the noise of "crackle and pops" becomes more noticeable -- dirt and scratches modulate infrared quite well. [ 01-30-2006, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: John Pytlak ]  |  IP: Logged William Hooper Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1879 From: Mobile, AL USA Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-01-2006 03:22 AM                        quote: Peter Mork 've been using the Jeff Stricker homebrew red LED in both our mono houses for over a year, and recommend it. Costs $10 to make and performs like a champ. My version uses a standard exciter lamp base, and can be removed. I made a spare to tote with me to places I may work where one is needed (the Foxboro Orpheum, say). I vote for the Jeff Stricker homebrew LED instructions to be updated w/part numbers & more assembly photos, then placed in the "Tips" section with How to Build A Breakdown Clutch, etc. "For emergency use only", of course.  |  IP: Logged Ed Inman Expert Film Handler Posts: 103 From: Jackson, Mississippi USA Registered: Jul 2004 posted 02-07-2006 08:11 PM                        I'm still stuck with a 1940's-era mono soundhead too and had to screen my first cyan soundtrack last night to about 90 people. I was pretty nervous about it. Since my film society doesn't have a lot of money about all I could do was pop in a used Jaxlight and hope for the best. For the most part I'd say it went just fine. No complaints about the sound at all. I detected a slightly higher noise-to-signal level (background hiss) than with using a regular exciter lamp and silver track, but overall the cyan track sounded much better with the Jaxlight than with an exciter lamp. I certainly don't consider cyan tracks an "improvement" but as long as I'm stuck with them I figure I will have to adapt. Next week I get to run a "real" silver soundtrack again and the exciter lamp gets popped back in! I can hardly wait (LOL).  |  IP: Logged

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