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Author Topic: Rates for new installs? Richard Hamilton Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1341 From: Evansville, Indiana Registered: Jan 2000 posted 11-21-2005 06:07 AM                     I was just curious what the going rates were for new installations? I was talking to someone who offered me a set price per booth for some upcoming jobs. I have never done that before, i have always charged a daily rate. I am wondering how to handle the issue of any delays or extra costs involved. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks, Rick Oh yeah, I forgot to add, this would involve racking and wiring the soundrack on site.  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 11-21-2005 06:23 AM                        For over 30 years I charged a set rate. However, delays and unreasonable expectations have caused me to lose a lot of money/time. I no longer will quote a set rate because the owner then runs the other way and makes all delays "your problem." This way all problems are "our" problems and I get paid for the time, included wasted trips. Regarding racking on site: It is inefficient and the job goes much better when done at the shop. That is where all tools, power equipment and small (important) parts are. (We prefab the booth equipment, wiring, sealtite, etc as far as we can off-site. If I can, I do A chain alignment and xenon/projector/lens alignment also.) Expense to stay at a hotel in a town 4 hours away covers all possible local wiring benefits.  |  IP: Logged John Walsh Film God Posts: 2490 From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way Registered: Oct 1999 posted 11-21-2005 08:15 AM                     Agreed with Louis on both issues. I will add one minor note, which you probably know already: If the monitor/amps do not use D15 cables to interconnect, you will have to make individual shielded cables with crimp on lugs, etc. which takes much more time to wire.  |  IP: Logged Richard Hamilton Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1341 From: Evansville, Indiana Registered: Jan 2000 posted 11-21-2005 08:28 AM                     Louis, I am concerned about the delays on site. Every job is different and it depends on who is running the site and coordinating everything. As an example, I was offered $1000 per screen for an 8 plex. With an estimated 3 weeks of work. But if I run into delays, then I think I can get screwed very quickly. I have not gone into details with the offer yet, but I think that figure means i cover all of my expenses. Before I talk to them again, I want to be more informed. I was thinking about $1250-$1500 at least per booth. Also how do you cover your ass for delays? Or do you just charge a daily rate always? Thanks for any tips. Rick  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 11-21-2005 08:49 AM                        I had to give up the flat rate completely. Strictly "time and materials, plus expenses." You could quote a flat rate with a certain number of hours purchased; then surcharge for material, travel, and additional time. There is NO WAY I would ever again quote a maximum price. Too many people took advantage of me. Louis  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-21-2005 08:56 AM                     We have never done flat rate installs as far as I know. Its always been T&M. The hourly rate we charge for installs depends somewhat on who the customer is and how mych buisness they've done with us in past years. There are ALWAYS delays, extra trips, and other expenses involved in any install. I prefer to assemble in the shop, assembling on site is not only more tiresome of road travel and road food but it is also quite wasteful of your customers expense charges. This is ALWAYS done more efficiently in the shop. Its also nice to find a defective piece of gear in the shop so it doesn't present any last minuite delays to getting a screen open on site. quote: Richard Hamilton I was offered $1000 per screen for an 8 plex. With an estimated 3 weeks of work. You'd go broke at that rate in a big hurry! Like Loius says that amount purchases X number of hours per installed booth. Anything over that including delays is extra. Expenses are always extra. Also have an install agreement drawn up that is a legal document. Have all customers(sometimes there are more than one) involved in a project sign it and personally guarantee it. I always did this back at Midwest and no customer ever had problems with signing an agreement. If one does I'd pass on the job. Have fun installing! Mark  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-21-2005 10:11 AM                     I do instals strictly on time and materials + expenses as one never knows what suprises may be in a box of "previously enjoyed" equipment  |  IP: Logged Richard Fowler Film God Posts: 2392 From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2001 posted 11-21-2005 11:13 AM                     Time and materials and per dium is the best way. We had one client which we would quote a flat rate but they had to follow our time line regarding sub-contractor and building matters to allow us to work. We also prefabricated the electrical interface ( wireways, sub-panel, sealtite and electrical hardware ) between the projection / sound to the building. Audio rack pre-wire, is alway superior done in a shop; an exception would be to make audio and electrical harness wire kits in advance in our shop. $1000.00 a room for an 8 plex...that is what we charged for projection / sound for a like sized project in Ft. Lauderale, Florida in 1978  |  IP: Logged Richard Hamilton Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1341 From: Evansville, Indiana Registered: Jan 2000 posted 11-21-2005 11:14 AM                     Thanks guys, As I said, I have always done work on a daily rate, and wasn't sure about doing a per booth rate, so that is why I was asking. Thanks for all of the input. My price per booth just went up considerably, with a lot of changes in the contract! Thanks again, Rick  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 11-21-2005 01:15 PM                     It's also worth laying out some sort of timeline in a signed agreement such that "X must be completed by Y date" and so forth. This is for YOUR protection, because in this example "X" may be your electrical needs, or your port windows, etc. Make it clear on paper that if the contractor falls behind that you are not suddenly reponsible for working 28 hour days or hiring in extra techs to assist at your expense to make the deadline...unless they pay extra for you to do so. Also put in there that they will cover the expense of anything you have to re-do. I had one install where the contractor's AC guys kept moving the platters and consoles because "they were in our way" and the decorator ordered the status panel in the lobby to be cut down because it didn't fit in with the look they wanted. (Yes they literally cut it down creating all new kinds of fun.) I spent more than double the hours I should've there because of things like this, and foolish me had agreed to do it at a flat rate. Regarding the set rate, these words are gold! quote: Louis Bornwasser I no longer will quote a set rate because the owner then runs the other way and makes all delays "your problem." So true! So true! More words of wisdom... quote: Gordon McLeod one never knows what suprises may be in a box of "previously enjoyed" equipment I charge much more for dealing with used equipment installs nowadays.  |  IP: Logged Richard Hamilton Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1341 From: Evansville, Indiana Registered: Jan 2000 posted 11-21-2005 04:03 PM                     o.k., i think I will stick with the daily rate then. Can any one comment on what the average daily rate is? I usually charge between $350 to $600 a day plus expenses, depending on the job. The special venue stuff pays more. But I am curious what the going rate is on a typical install so I don't sell myself short on a bid. Thanks, Rick  |  IP: Logged Royce Patton Film Handler Posts: 3 From: Culver City, CA Registered: Nov 2005 posted 11-21-2005 06:48 PM                        I would suggest that you always charge a flat rate and base your price on a job with some typical problems, which are bound to occur. However, you should add language to your proposal that makes the customer responsible for paying for major and/or unreasonable delays. You should come in between $1,500 and $2,100 per-screen, with travel expenses added on top of that. Don't try to do the racks on site even with the QSC DCM/DCA setup, it's just not worth it, too much labor, too much trash in an environment that is already cluttered and insecure. Allow 2 days per-screen for the install with a couple of extra days added for cushion, so 3 weeks is plenty for 8 screens. Have the customer get the racks done elsewhere and shipped to the site. If you feel like you must do them, rent a self-storage unit to work from near your house if you don't have a shop. Get the racks done well before the start of the booth install and of course the racking is an additional charge. Just my two-cents worth....  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-21-2005 06:58 PM                     quote: Brad Miller I charge much more for dealing with used equipment installs nowadays. No real need to do that. Just charge T&M for repairing the used equipment on site! We have one customer that is a believer in re-cycling equipment big time. We actually make alot more profit on the parts and labor in the repairs to his used equipment to bring it up to spec on site. Take a used AW-3 for instance... just did two of them on site. We replaced 5 missing sensors,a missing LED card, 4 missing motor controler cards, and rebuilt the 6 motors, and replaced many of the rollers..... We made far more profit just on these parts than we would have on a brand new AW-3. and there was alot of labor on top of that! I donno why this customer has us do this but I have no problems with it. Another example was 2 DTS 6D's he bought used. Both had supposedly been upgraded by a dealer(?) in Denver.... but he did the upgrades wrong... installed new Teac 32X drives and left the old ROMDOS B in place thats only good for 16X drives. More repairs and more profit made than selling a new unit....... Unless of course you're selling new equipment at list price...... quote: Richard Hamilton Can any one comment on what the average daily rate is? I usually charge between $350 to $600 a day plus expenses, depending on the job. Labor charged has nothing to do with what job it is. If you have a lot of years of experience and are well equipped with the latest in tools and test gear and if you carry a lathe and arbor press in your van then 500 a day is quite reasonable. You are worth what you are worth and failing to charge that you are cheating yourself!. If you are really, really good and work fast you might save your customer some $$ buy taking less days to complete a job. But if your work pace is so-so and you're not familiar with his equipment or you don't get along with the electricians then you will cost him more. Be careful that one customer doesn't find out that you charged another less.... the exhibition buisness while competetive also has its buddie-buddie thing going on too at the golf course. Another thing to be careful of is having in your agreement for the owner to supply the electrician which is required in at least 88% of the locations you'd be doing new installs. Most of the jobs I've been on the electrician will do the wiring and mount the gear on the walls, some would rather you actually do the woring but they will pull the feeds and wire in for you but nothing else. It all depends on local codes and ordinances and on how the electrician feels about you.... Make a good impression the forst day working with who ever it is... they can also make your job extremely miserable and the good majority of electricians actually do suck big time and they'd rather be out doing something else! Above all don't get stuck with his charges!!! Lastly, Get yourself the best accountant you can afford! Use Quickbooks Pro for everything and be sure your accountant is well versed in Quickbooks. Quickbooks makes an having an audit a breeze! Last place I worked at was on Quickbooks for 4 years and was then audited... turned out that the State ended up owing the company over $4,000.00..... Mark  |  IP: Logged Matt Fields Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 545 From: Ohio, United States Registered: Jun 2005 posted 11-21-2005 09:15 PM                     Quickbooks rules!  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-22-2005 08:12 AM                     quote: Quickbooks rules! Absolutely! But it can take some time to learn how to let it rule... best to take a class when one is offered in your area otherwise it can get pretty mean. But once understood a totally paperless company is possible... even down to getting paid..... Mark  |  IP: Logged

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