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Author Topic: What would cause this kind of damage to a film? (pictures) Dan Chilton Expert Film Handler Posts: 191 From: Springfield, MO Registered: Mar 2004 posted 10-25-2005 04:49 PM                        I just received our copy of THE ARISTOCRATS from Technicolor this afternoon. Upon screening the film, I noticed that it looked, and sounded, like utter crap. There was noticable damage on the non-soundtrack side of the frame, and persistent lines that would last for several minutes at a time. Also, although it's not present in the included pictures, there is considerable damage next to the soundtrack that translates to crackling during projection. What did the last projectionist do to cause this kind of damage? Should I request a new print from Technicolor? I've yet to have a print in this condition, so I haven't had to do that yet. Any suggestions? This picture shows a lot of the damage on the non-soundtrack side of the frame. This is persistent throughout. Here's a good shot of the lines that keep appearing and moving around. They don't dance around the frame, instead they stay perfectly static and then disappear as quickly as they appeared. I tried to get a shot of the soundtrack damage, but it didn't turn out. However, you can see a good bit of additional scratching along the opposite edge.  |  IP: Logged Richard May Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1057 From: Floral Park, NY USA Registered: Aug 2004 posted 10-25-2005 05:05 PM                     The small horizontal scratches just inside the sprockets look familiar. I had the same problem one time, although it was on both edges. It turned out to be the intermittent shoe from a simplex projector. It would shake back and forth and give those short horizontal scratches. The rest just looks like it was mauled.  |  IP: Logged Dan Chilton Expert Film Handler Posts: 191 From: Springfield, MO Registered: Mar 2004 posted 10-25-2005 05:20 PM                        I just called Technicolor and requested a new print, although I doubt it will get here by our first showing (tomorrow night at 7:00). I forgot to ask the customer rep who had the print last. Will they even disclose that information? Is there any other way to tell who had it before me?  |  IP: Logged Darryl Spicer Film God Posts: 3250 From: Lexington, KY, USA Registered: Dec 2000 posted 10-25-2005 07:34 PM                    I would suspect that it last ran on a Simplex with a bad sound gate assembly. The Nothing in that sound gate was probably turning correctly do to bad lubrication and bad bearings. It's also possible that all the pad rollers are set incorrectly and the intermittent shoe is probably loose as mentioned above in another post. quote: Dan Chilton Is there any other way to tell who had it before me? Maybe, get the tracking number off of the cans and go to DHL's web site and run the tracking number. If it was shipped directly from that theatre it might show up.  |  IP: Logged Dan Chilton Expert Film Handler Posts: 191 From: Springfield, MO Registered: Mar 2004 posted 10-25-2005 08:14 PM                        Thanks for the tip, Darryl, but no luck... the print came directly from Technicolor in Ohio.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-25-2005 09:42 PM                     FIRST PICTURE The marks on the edges can be caused by many things, of which the most common is the last roller on the platter being too low to the edge of the takeup deck and it having a burr on it that puts a scrape with every rotation. After a number of runs, you have something that looks like that. However in your case that doesn't make sense, as that is the emulsion side of the film, so it couldn't have happened there unless the film was consistently threaded "against the grain" as it traveled onto the deck. I've also seen it from keeper rollers with a burr on it that was touching (and spinning) with the film, so without seeing the film in person, that's my best guess. It is very important to look CLOSER at this first pic! This print was CLEARLY run on one of those stupid shitty Simplex/RCA type soundheads. See the embedded dirt pattern that was left behind? That DOES translate to the screen on properly lit screens and IS film damage. I'm glad someone was finally able to capture this damage clearly in a photograph. Maybe more people will listen and heed my advice running 5 Star models to do the pinch roller modification to prevent this. Older RCA type soundheads will forever be a shitty soundhead though, as there is nothing that can be done to it's design to fix it. PICTURE 2 This is absolutely pad roller scratches, where the clearance was too tight. The pad rollers should be able to spin freely with 2 layers of film clamped onto the sprockets, but be snug with 3 layers. PICTURE 3 Without seeing more of this scratching I can't be certain, but my initial guess is a misthread where the film jumped a roller and was scraping over a bar (such as can happen on a SPECO or STRONG platter).  |  IP: Logged Dan Chilton Expert Film Handler Posts: 191 From: Springfield, MO Registered: Mar 2004 posted 10-25-2005 10:08 PM                        Wow! Thanks for the detailed explaination, Brad. I really need to buy some Film Guard, to repay your generous advice... and to help me never leave a print in this kind of condition. Here's hoping that the second print doesn't end up worse than this one!  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 10-26-2005 12:01 AM                     ..and the third one is usually caused by someone who had "shouldered" rollers in the pad arm assembly that surrounds the middle constant speed sprocket (Simplex) after the film leaves the intermittent assembly-usually with the lower loops being too small. Shouldered rollers causes this linear scratching on the base(cyan) side of the print as the film is entering the sprocket and the inner shoulders of the roller are rubbing against the print on each side. ..and on the first one, you can see the "tiretread" of the lateral guide pressure pad as it presses on the emulsion (magenta) side of the film as it goes around the scanner drum. A common Simplex trademark for a print that was being used for quite a few weeks in these machines. -Monte  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 10-26-2005 01:20 AM                        Also, look at the bottom right corner of each perforation on the soundtrack side. A worn sprocket, I'd guess.  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 10-26-2005 01:35 AM                     quote: Leo Enticknap A worn sprocket, I'd guess. ..like a sprocket that had the sides worn off due to an off-aligned outer shoe... ..or an intermittent sprocket not fully aligned to the shoes - a good sign of a recent intermittent assembly replacement and the sprocket wasn't aligned with the gate shoes after the reinstall. -Monte  |  IP: Logged Wolff King Morrow Master Film Handler Posts: 490 From: Denton, TX, USA Registered: Feb 2004 posted 10-26-2005 03:24 AM                        Brad, can you give me a link to your instructions on modifying the pinch roller on a 5 Star sound head? Mine are clean and I haven't found that kind of damage happening, but I'd like to see what I can do to prevent it if it does come up. BTW guys another way rookies can scratch the middle of the film with random lines is by incorrectly threading the cue detector. If the film is threaded on the inside of the first roller of the cue detector, it then rubs again the metal edge of the device, causing random virtical scratches. It boggled my mind that rookies can pull this off, because its actually harder to thread the leader inside that first roller.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-26-2005 03:36 AM                     It's very easy, provided you have a buzz track loop and some rubber inserts from Kelmar that are sold to go on the takeup shafts of their film cleaning machines. Simply disassemble the soundhead "gate" and remove the rubber pinch roller and replace it with a rubber insert for a film cleaner. Note you DO need to trim the rubber insert to just BARELY wider than the pinch roller that you are removing, but past that run your buzz track and adjust lateral guide position and you're done...FOREVER! You don't even need to screw with opening the gates up at night either, because it is not IMPOSSIBLE for them to develop a flat spot or wear out.  |  IP: Logged Dan Lyons Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 698 From: Seal Beach, CA Registered: Sep 2002 posted 10-26-2005 03:49 AM                     Just note that you don't want to thread on the countdown leader if you perform that modifiction on the machine or you will end up scratching the first few feet of the picture; unless you have a fancy motor that can be slowly brought up to speed. The photo above was my previous machine. If I recall correctly, I measured the amount of footage for the sound drum to come up to speed at approx. 15 feet. That was with a resistor on the motor to slow the jack rabbit start-up. Definately more footage with the motor wired normally.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-26-2005 04:14 AM                     I know what you are saying Dan about how the sound drum itself will take a few extra seconds to get up to full speed, but those machines ran for years on 7 second start ups with that modification and the first image to hit the screen was never scratched.  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 10-26-2005 02:13 PM                     quote: Wolff King Morrow lines is by incorrectly threading the cue detector. ...and by checking the ball bearings on those rollers on those drop arms. Seen many rollers dried up and not turning. Kinda why the FP-350 really has it made without using any drop arms to actuate the system. Thought of other reasons of that base line scratching is of the bearings for the scanner drum shaft-get grumbly bearings and the scanner drum is actually dragging some to cause the film to actually pulling the drum around to rotate. ..or, the lower snub roller arm isn't being drawn inbetween the two stops and the film is actually sliding across the scanner drum. AND...why I wish that STRONG would have never got rid of the fluid filled flywheel that was on the old 4-star units so the scanner drum wouldn't have to be ramped up to speed with the rest of the system as it is now. But, unfortunately, we are in an era of amateur operators where paying for professionalism is such an evil omen for the masses. -Monte  |  IP: Logged

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