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Topic: Why are some prints shaky and others not?

Dan Chilton
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 191
From: Springfield, MO
Registered: Mar 2004

posted 10-19-2005 10:06 PM

We've shown ten prints on our Simplex XL, and all of them have been rock steady... except for BROKEN FLOWERS. I clean before every thread, but I still called our projection tech to see if it was something on our side. He had me check a few things and then stated, "everything sounds good, so it's probably just a bad print."

How does that work? What on the print makes it jumpy? No one but me noticed it, but there was a definite shakiness. Are the frames off by millimeters or what? [Confused]

We're showing GRIZZLY MAN right now and it's back to a rock solid picture.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 10-19-2005 10:13 PM

Are all the reels unsteady, or just some?

What print film stock?

Was the print edgewaxed or lubricated in any way?

The unsteadiness may be due to slight slippage between original and raw stock when printing short-pitch original to short-pitch raw stock on a continuous contact printer.

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Dan Chilton
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 191
From: Springfield, MO
Registered: Mar 2004

posted 10-19-2005 10:19 PM

Reel 4 was steady, but all the rest were slightly shaky. I hate to say it, but I think the stock was Kodak. Technicolor picked the film up this morning, or else I go double-check. There was no lubircant or edgewaxing...

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 10-20-2005 12:46 AM

quote: John Pytlak
The unsteadiness may be due to slight slippage between original and raw stock when printing short-pitch original to short-pitch raw stock on a continuous contact printer

..and unfortunate, it seems to be a continual factor from labs using contact printing-as fast as these units produce prints. Ran into a few of these prints as well..shaking a bit to where I've seen weaving and suddenly an out of frame hits the screen with no splice present..

..not like the good ol days of IB dye transferrs and "wetgate" printing...

-Monte

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Paul Gordon
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 580
From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 10-20-2005 07:06 AM

I think the labs are starting to get really careless, i've had a couple jumpy prints lately to. One "Parrots of telegraph hill" was even cut wrong, the optical track was right on the edge of the film as if the machine cutting the stock had copped to close. It played but a couple reels jumped a bit and I was a little worried that the sound would slip. I've also noticed a few reels that come out of sync. "Mad Hot Ballroom's" reel #2 is out of sync, and the print of "All Gone Pete Tong" had several reel outs of sync." How can you screw up the sync and still send it around to theatres?

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Cory Isemann
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 500
From: White Plains, MD, USA
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 10-20-2005 09:02 AM

Our entire "Elizabethtown" print was like that. It jumped vertically only. It was interesting to push the aperture plate aside and watch the sprocket holes not move at all whilst the picture jumped all to hell. Also worth noting were the amount of weave on the analog soundtrack and the DTS timecode.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 10-20-2005 09:45 AM

Quote" I think the labs are starting to get really careless, i've had a couple jumpy prints lately to."

Even prints done at slow speed can have weave and jitter

Quote " One "Parrots of telegraph hill" was even cut wrong, the optical track was right on the edge of the film as if the machine cutting the stock had copped to close."

Thje stock is slit and perforated at the manufacturer the lab doesnt cut it at all If the optical track is misaligned it is due to the sound neg jumping off the sprocet or being misaligned

quote " It played but a couple reels jumped a bit and I was a little worried that the sound would slip. I've also noticed a few reels that come out of sync. "Mad Hot Ballroom's" reel #2 is out of sync, and the print of "All Gone Pete Tong" had several reel outs of sync." How can you screw up the sync and still send it around to theatres? "

To verify sync every prnt would have to be screened in reel time and that just isn't going to happen as often 2000+ prints are printed in just a few days since the final cut is not often ready till the week of release

quote ".not like the good ol days of IB dye transferrs and "wetgate" printing..."

Yah just like all the misaligned colour fringing on many older IB prints due to shrinkage and slipping of the matrixs

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Peter John Anthony. C
Film Handler

Posts: 55
From: India
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 10-20-2005 01:05 PM

I have also faced these types of problem in some films.

I feel the problem is related to the thickness of the film.

In our Simplex 35 projector we have film tension adjusting knob. If I find there is any shaky print, I just check by increasing the tension of the film strap, which some times solves the problem… thanks

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 10-20-2005 01:33 PM

Printer sync is usually verified by a sync beep in the audio track lining up with a certain point in the leader, sometimes called the "2-pop":

http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/manuals/DTSPOSTPROD.pdf (see page 12)

quote:
The 2-pop is properly placed at 7 feet 12 frames, measured from the start mark. On an Academy leader, this is four frames before the 4-foot mark. There is a small diamond in the center of the frame.

http://www.acvl.org/handbook/5a.htm

quote:
You must insure that your final mixed magnetic track has one and only one beep in the head leader, and that the beep is in editorial sync with the "2" in your Universal leader. This beep will be used to line up the photographic sound negative with the original picture negatives.

Sometimes, sync issues can be heard on prints that are printed in perfect sync. Slight errors in sound editing, or in ADR may affect certain scenes, so the sound may be in perfect sync for most of the reel, but a few scenes may be a bit "off".

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Dan Chilton
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 191
From: Springfield, MO
Registered: Mar 2004

posted 10-20-2005 03:47 PM

So basically, a bad print is a bad print. There's no two ways around it, huh? Luckily, no one seemed to notice the jumpy reels on BROKEN FLOWERS, other than myself and the other projectionist.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 10-20-2005 03:52 PM

As noted earlier in this thread, a quick way to see if the unsteadiness is in the printing or in your projector is to pull the aperture plate and look at the corners of the projected print perforations. If the perfs are "rock steady", your projector and the print film are doing their jobs. If the print perfs are jumping, check to be sure the gate tension is set correctly (just tight enough to hold a steady image), the gate is clean and free of hardened debris that may cause the print to stick, and that there are no mechanical problems with your projector (especially the intermittent).

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 10-20-2005 04:46 PM

And also in the labs defense with typically 2000+ prints with typically 6 reels per print the odd bad reel is still less than the average of most manufactureing processes

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 10-20-2005 04:47 PM

Basically, if any film projects with good stability, then your projector isn't the problem - the one that doesn't is an NFG print. There are all sorts of lab issues that can result in a wobbly print (as Monte points out, the modern high-speed continuous contact printers which churn out today's release prints plough through up to a million feet a day, so the margin for error is pretty small), and don't even get me started on what us archivists have to do to avoid shrinkage, perf damage, and/or unsteadiness printed through from element(s) of previous generations to the best surviving one from causing this!

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 10-20-2005 09:54 PM

quote: Leo Enticknap
Basically, if any film projects with good stability, then your projector isn't the problem - the one that doesn't is an NFG print.

Mostly true, but not quite. You can have a situation where you need to optimize the gate tension for a certain print, e.g., if you have a print that was overlubricated such that it needs higher gate tension to compensate for its low frictional coefficient.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 10-21-2005 04:03 AM

OK - I'll rephrase the first part of that post: if a print can be projected with good stability, assuming that the projector is set up correctly and by a projectionist who is able to do this and to gather all the relevant information from a pint examination...

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