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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » A Simplex Shaky Picture (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: A Simplex Shaky Picture
Richard Edward Wells III
Film Handler

Posts: 20
From: Cloverdale, CA, USA
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted 02-21-2005 11:46 AM      Profile for Richard Edward Wells III   Email Richard Edward Wells III   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just recently moved to a new theater, they run with 8 Simplex 1050's and 4 of the Millenium editions, and many of them have a bad shaky picture, and despite my adjusting of the tension on the film trap, the picture is still shaky, it just makes it a little worse or better. What other factors lead to a shaky picture?

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Richard May
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1057
From: Floral Park, NY USA
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted 02-21-2005 01:01 PM      Profile for Richard May   Email Richard May   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Is it shaky up and down or side to side?

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-21-2005 01:33 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Since you say you came from another theater, I don't feel to bad about asking these questions:

How clean are the projectors?
How well have they been maintained up till the time you started working there?

I guess what I'm saying is that no matter how well you, personally, maintan the machines, you could be shovelling shit against the tide if they weren't well maintained and kept clean before you took over.

It;s kinda' like buying a used car... You inherrit all the previous owner's problems.

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Floyd Justin Newton
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 559
From: Phoenix, Arizona, USA
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 02-21-2005 01:47 PM      Profile for Floyd Justin Newton   Email Floyd Justin Newton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Richard III--

There is probably a set screw on the int. sprocket that 'might'
become ever-so-loose which can cause vertical jitter. You may
want to check that this screw is well-seated. This happened on
my JJ's. [Smile]

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Chris Hipp
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1462
From: Mesquite, Tx (east of Dallas)
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted 02-21-2005 04:03 PM      Profile for Chris Hipp   Email Chris Hipp   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
First thing, figure out if the shake is coming from your projector or the lens turret. I know that milleniums have poorly designed lens turret and the collets that hold hte actual lens becomes loose.

Grab and hold the lens in one position and see if the problem goes away.

This next method should not be done with an actual print, just use a trailer loop. Thread it up and stick a tooth brush or something behind the tension band. If the shake stops then you dont have enough tension.

If it is a horizontal shake then it is most likely that the lateral guid roller has stuck open and is allowing the film to move in the gate.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-21-2005 11:32 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think Mr MAy has offed the most important queery
the direction of the shake and until that is known the rest is useless speculation

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Richard Edward Wells III
Film Handler

Posts: 20
From: Cloverdale, CA, USA
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted 02-22-2005 12:04 AM      Profile for Richard Edward Wells III   Email Richard Edward Wells III   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's a vertical shake... and on the projector with the worst shake, it is not the lens that is shaking the picture... and the tension adjust on the film trap seems to do almost nothing.

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Dan Lyons
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 698
From: Seal Beach, CA
Registered: Sep 2002


 - posted 02-22-2005 12:22 AM      Profile for Dan Lyons   Email Dan Lyons   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Is the Int. movement noisy? Checked the oil level lately? Is the oil pump working properly?

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 02-22-2005 01:39 AM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Maybe the gate bands are just old. They come to a point when the tension adjustment doesn't help anymore, they have to be replaced. Then you should make sure the trap closure is set properly. The pad shoe is not supposed to firmly grip the intermittent sprocket, there should be 1-2 film thicknesses between them. Although in your case, it's not likely that they are set too loose anyway. But it's good to check that once in a while.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004


 - posted 02-22-2005 01:56 AM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If it's the Mil2000 machines, those have the Century trap and gate assembly, and what can happen(if this is the case and machine that's causing this) is that the gate assembly is adjusted by two taper bolts with 9/64th allen sockets.

What can happen is that the adjustment has worked itself loose, where the band tension will not do any good. One must loosen up those taper bolts and slide in the gate assembly a bit towards the trap, then retighten to see if this cures the vertical jumping-if it's gate and trap related. If this works, make sure that the band tension is back down to "1" for miminual wear.

I've had 2 Mils do this very thing-jumpy pict and the band tension was cranked all the way up.

Now, if it's the older 1050's, there is a stop allen that stops the gate from closing too tight, or it could wiggle itself out to where the gate isn't closing too tight-as above with the Mils.

The stop allen is the allen screw on the other side of the aperture opening on the trap assembly.

How to see if the assembly is closing properly, is to look at the Intermittent shoes and when the gate closes, the shoes should have just completely touched the sprocket-no more nor, no less.

If the shoes have touched the sprocket and the gate has more to close, then the stop allen is in too much. If the shoes aren't even closing around the sprocket, or just one side of the shoes are touching the sprocket, the stop allen is out too far,which isn't allowing the gate to come completely closed to the trap.

If it isn't these above, you could have some turret bearing that have gone bad, or the turret rings are out of adjustment. In the 1050's, the top bearing is on an eccentric shaft whereas the other two are on solid shafts. The top shaft is where one tightens up the turret so there is very gradual play. Loosen up the allen - a 3/32nds and put a 1/8" allen in the front of the bearing, and this will rotate the shaft until when the turret can rotate, but without any play. Also, check the two nylon stop bolts for the turret and see if they're stopping the turret in position when the turret is closing.

These turret tips are probably not related to the vertical problem that is apparent, but it's an area that needs attention as well.

Little helps for you on your jumpy problem.

-good luck .. Monte

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Ian Bailey
Master Film Handler

Posts: 317
From: Nambucca Heads, Australia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted 02-22-2005 03:23 AM      Profile for Ian Bailey   Email Ian Bailey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Michael
Could you explain how to adjust the pad shoe so it is 1-2 film thicknesses of gap from the intermittent.I have 1050's with the straight gate and the pad shoe is under spring tension so when the gate is closed the pad shoe rests against the intermittent due to the spring tension.Are we talking about a different gate?(sorry for putting the pressure on you but I'll be your BEST FRIEND if you tells us!!!) [Wink]

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004


 - posted 02-22-2005 03:37 AM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Ian ..

Please excuse me for "butting" in with your question to Michael, but the 1050 straight gates have the same stop allen bolt, inboard and across of the aperture opening on the trap assembly - to stop the gate assembly from closing too tight against the intermittent sprocket. You can adjust this out with an allen wrench for correct closure distance.

Look in your Simplex parts manual, and you'll see in the gate and trap section the P-1433 Gap Adjusting Screw. This is this stop screw for the gate.

Just trying to help you out.

thx-monte

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 02-22-2005 05:56 AM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The white man speaks the truth! Interestingly, in the old Simplex manuals, I don't think it says anything about distance between the pad shoe and the sprocket. But in the PR2000 manual, it says there should be 1 film thickness space. Yes, the gate is different (the one which swings from a bolt on top of the gate), but the principle is the same. Typically, clearance between pad rollers and the other sprockets is set to 2 film thicknesses. That's because unlike the intermittent pad shoe, they are not springed to allow splices to pass through smoothly. Whether you put a piece of film on the intermittent sprocket and adjust the stopping screw so that it just closes, or whether you simply adjust it by feeling so that it just touches the sprocket or is a tiny little bit away from it, doesn't really matter. What's important is that the pad shoe simply holds the film on the sprocket without much pressure. Too much pressure can result in excessive shedding and wear down the intermittent movement prematurely.
After adjusting the gate closure, you will also have to adjust gate band tension. The best tension is just what is needed to keep the film from jumping up and down, not much more. You also need to reset the focus. Often, you still have enough play using the focus adjustment on the lens turret. But you can also reset the lenses by setting the focus adjustment screw to the middle of its travel, losening the screw which tightens down the lens barrel, and moving the lenses into the ideal focus position. Also check out the tips for scope lens adjustments here in the tips section. Finally, check if the stopping screw for the lens turret has worn down, and also the screws which stop the turret in scope or flat position when you rotate it. All these sometimes get loose or wear down, the picture can get a little, but noticeably, out of alignment!

There are a few other really good tips in the manuals. I believe you can view them on www.film-tech.com , or http://www.strong-cinema.com/ , also download and print them! Most of them even have pictures!!

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Ian Bailey
Master Film Handler

Posts: 317
From: Nambucca Heads, Australia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted 02-22-2005 07:11 AM      Profile for Ian Bailey   Email Ian Bailey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Monte-I'll be your best friend too!! [beer]
My gates are at the point where they need a complete overhaul,The vertical runners are worn,the springs are week and even the faceplate of the trap has wear marks from the print running over it(which could indicate that there has been too much gate tension)I think I should rebuild the gates first then worry about the adjustments that you and Michael have mentioned.I have a small amount of vertical picture shake on one machine which has the most worn gate and trap,my other machine nas a very steady picture.
What I did notice tonight on the very worn gate is when it is closed there is very little travel left in the vertical runners ie that are nearly pushed hard up against the gate. I know we have strayed a bit but I hope this information is helpful for Richard 3-I know I have learnt something!!

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-22-2005 07:30 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Michael Schaffer
The white man speaks the truth! Interestingly, in the old Simplex manuals, I don't think it says anything about distance between the pad shoe and the sprocket.
Thats because there was no stopper screw to adjust gate closure depth back then. You got the full force of the gate tension onto the film weather you wanted it or not.....

Mark

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