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Author Topic: Super 35 explained
Steve Kraus
Film God

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From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 12-19-2004 11:57 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In another thread I mentioned screening in native Super 35 format. This is one of those terms that many of us take for granted but I thought it might be instructive for some to show exactly what is going on.

In the past if you had a movie in "Scope" format it most likely was shot with camera lenses not unlike the anamorphic lenses you will use to project it. A wide image is squeezed by a 2:1 compression factor into a relatively square frame. Your projection lens stretches it back out.

Many filmmakers like the 2.39 : 1 aspect ratio but don't particularly want to shoot with anamorphic lenses (for reasons we won't get into here). With improved film stocks it's possible to shoot with conventional lenses, confine the desired part of the image to a widescreen segment of the frame and then have the lab blow up, squeeze, and reposition the image to make anamorphic (squeezed image) prints that pretty much resemble "real" Scope format prints except that they aren't as sharp due to the smaller original negative. The blowup is usually done on an optical printer although it can now be done as part of a digital intermediate as well.

"Super" is of course a misnomer since the format is considerally smaller than the real deal. Super apparently refers to the fact that the full width of the print is used instead of leaving space for the soundtrack.

Since dailies and workprints are contact printed from the camera negative they are "native" Super 35 before the blowup. Here is a framing leader from some "The Matrix" footage I screened. You can see the projectable area and how it fills the width of the film.

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The rectangle whose corners the arrows point to outlines the area that is being used. (The artwork in the middle has no significance.)

Here is a Photoshopped example of how that same image would look like after conversion to anamorphic:

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Nowadays it seems like as many as 2/3 of Scope format movies are Super 35 rather than true anamorphic. It's also possible to do Super 35 1.85 but that's rare. With digital intermediates however there may be renewed interest. In this case the original negative sees an increase in area so in theory the quality would be improved. For the 2.39 Scope format films it's a substantially smaller film area than real anamorphic and often the image quality suffers as a result.

Edit: Clarification added.

[ 12-20-2004, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Steve Kraus ]

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John Hawkinson
Film God

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From: Cambridge, MA, USA
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 - posted 12-20-2004 01:06 AM      Profile for John Hawkinson   Email John Hawkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events was Super 1.85, FYI. See the December American Cinematographer.

--jhawk

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William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Mobile, AL USA
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 - posted 12-20-2004 01:39 AM      Profile for William Hooper   Author's Homepage   Email William Hooper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's really interesting. Is only the leader, or all of it like that? So much of the frame is taken up with those registration targets or whatever those things are, that the image area is smaller than that for 1.85! I always thought the idea of S35 was to utilize the entire frame for image area to somewhat ameliorate the quality loss of not shooting anamorphic.

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Leo Enticknap
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 - posted 12-20-2004 02:04 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Kraus
It's also possible to do Super 35 1.85 but that's rare. With digital intermediates however there may be renewed interest.
Why might digital intermediates revive the process? Because scanning a full-width 1.85 frame and then lasering out to a conventional one (which makes room for the soundtrack, and therefore covers a signficantly smaller surface area) loses less resolution than optically reduction printing it?

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

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From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
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 - posted 12-20-2004 02:55 AM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Course, wasn't S-35 basically created for shooting a wide screen movie and not to lose the "depth of field" with using regular F/stop lenses, which was "the curse" with anamorphic lenses on cameras-anamorphic lenses not being able to capture the "depth of field" as with the regular(flat)lenses?

BTW: Steve, I check out your site with that screening room, and also the picts of the screening room with those 12, small JBL surrounds around the back half of the auditorium. Very impressive with all of this.

Question may I ask: would you say that if one was to design a home theatre configuration, would this be the most effective way in presenting surround sound in a confined space, as such as the size of this screening room, to not to "localized the surround information", yet carry the larger speakers behind screen, as so mentioned?

thx-Monte

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Steve Kraus
Film God

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From: Chicago, IL, USA
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 - posted 12-20-2004 06:50 AM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not sure, Monte. I didn't design this installation.

The reason DI (digital intermediate) might jumpstart Super 1.85 is...well basically, why not? If you know you are going DI then why not film composing the picture for full width (presuming you can get cameras with lens mounts centered that way and all lenses cover the full width). I'm not sure how advantageous the slightly greater width is with 2K DI but as 4K becomes more common I'm sure there will be a feeling that the negative "real estate" is paid for so might as well use it.

Without DI it's an optical printer blowup which conveys certain disadvantages and many would feel that it's not worth the bother (and expense) for the small increase in area. Some years back a camera rental house was touting the format claiming that the improvement was such that it made release prints look as sharp as dailies but I kinda doubt that was the case.

William: You can hardly use the entire frame top to bottom when you need a rectangular 2.39 shape. Yes, that is just a framing leader. Many films shoot a roll of focus target and then the editors will attach a dozen or so feet of positive print to the head of each roll of dailies (and of course does not focus the same as film fresh out of the processor LOL). The actual Super 35 footage would most often be full frame images with tons of surplus head and foot room. (In this particular case I was showing effects from 3 different effects houses; I don't recall the frame dimensions.)

I should mention that before DI an easy way to determine a Super 35 release print was the lack of negative splices (white lines at scene changes). The negative is cut and spliced before the blowup is done and since the optical printer camera is only photographing the 2.39 area it doesn't come anywhere near the physical splice so the frame line at scene changes looks like any other frame line. You can sometimes also tell from the leader if the leader masters were applied before the blowup there is a peculiar cropped and squeezed and off center look to them although that's not the case if the leader masters are applied after the blowup.

DI on the other hand often reveals itself, whether on Super 35 or any other format, by certain test patterns you may see in the tail leader although that will vary with who did the DI.

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John Pytlak
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From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
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 - posted 12-20-2004 08:44 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve: Nice explanation of Super-35. [Cool]

If a Digital Intermediate is going to be used for color manipulation or digital effects anyway, shooting 1.85:1 using the wider Super-35 negative area makes lots of sense. Since the area on the camera negative that ends up on the screen is 0.945 x 0.511 inches, instead of 0.825 x 0.446 inches, the graininess should be reduced. The added sharpness would likely require a 4K scan to fully appreciate.

http://www.cinesite.com/?1221&0&3821

quote:
2K, 4K or 6K scanning (35mm)and Datacine scanning (16mm) for Look Creation, Color Correction and Digital Answer Printing for all or a portion of Feature Films, Long Form Broadcast, Titles & Trailers. Mastering to all formats --Film, Video (HD, SD, DVD), and Digital Cinema.

THE PROCESS

With Cinesite's Digital Intermediate process, the interactive color-grading and image processing tools of the telecine suite are now available at the film level. The Digital Intermediate process starts with the digitizing (scanning) of select takes or the entire original negative @ 2K, 4K or 6K resolution. Utilizing a Northlight or Kodak's Lightning Scanners, film is digitized to 2K data files and loaded to a Spectre Virtual Datacine for more flexible realtime manipulation.

DIGITAL COLORIST

A skilled colorist, working with the filmmaker, grades the shots using a Pandora MegaDef or DaVinci color corrector. In addition to the basic RGB color timing controls of the traditional film color timing process, the colorist has the full range of primary and secondary color correction, including the ability to selectively grade individual elements within a shot. The colorist also controls image processing capabilities such as contrast, sharpness and grain. Using "power windows" the colorist can isolate and manipulate very specific areas of the frame to achieve a desired look.

EDITING/TIME FRAME

In creating the Digital Intermediate, an edit decision list (EDL) can be imported from an off-line editor and utilized to digitally conform live action sequences, optical effects and visual effects.

The Digital Intermediate also compresses the traditional time frame required for answer printing and telecine video mastering. A single scan produces a digital master file for both film record-out and for all video formats. Once the film version is color corrected, the video and digital cinema versions will need a "trim" pass, but essentially they are color-corrected.

THE OUTPUTS - FILM, VIDEO, DIGITAL CINEMA

The Digital Intermediate can be output to three formats.

Film: The file can be recorded to a film inter-negative (IN) or inter-positive (IP) using Kodak Lightning laser film recorders. This IN and/or IP will have all the scene-to-scene color grading applied to it, thereby simplifying the answer printing operations in the film lab. And, by producing an IP, one film processing stage can be eliminated. Cinesite can also apply a digital squeeze on the output, thereby producing an anamorphic IP or IN for widescreen release. Our tests have shown that this digital squeeze is substantially sharper than the traditional process of producing an anamorphic IN with an optical printer. Additionally Super 16mm can be digitally "blown up" to 35mm, providing a less grainy image than an optical blow up.

Video: The Digital Intermediate is also the starting point for creating the various videotape masters for multi-format release. Starting with the digital files from the film version, the colorist can quickly re-grade and re-format the files for the various video formats (HD, SD, DVD). This delivery path from digital files to film results in time and money saved and produces a higher quality image due to minimal film handling. The process of scanning film to data also produces higher resolution video.

Digital Cinema: The Digital Intermediate can also be output to a third format - a 24P playback source suitable for digital projection.

END-TO-END SOLUTION

After the Digital Intermediate process is complete, Cinesite also offers digital archiving of the digital files (color-corrected or uncolor-corrected) and traditional film archiving for the film negative and other components. If the client prefers, this can all be accomplished at PRO-TEK, Kodak's state-or-the-art ANSI standard (45%BA Fahrenheit, 25% humidity) facility in Burbank.

SUMMARY

Digital Intermediate depends on more than the hardware and software tools that enable it. The quality and consistency of the output images require a thorough understanding of the end-to-end (film/video finishing) process involving carefully implemented calibration and quality control procedures. With Kodak's color science behind Cinesite's innovation and service, the feasibility of the Digital Intermediate process is now a reality and has been proven in the pioneering "look-driven" films O Brother, Where Art Thou? and Traffic onto today's current releases. Films seeking more conventional color timing or specific fine tuning, such as the ground breaking Conspiracy: The Meeting at Wansee (an HBO film shot on 16mm, scanned once, color-timed and output to both video and film) and Open Range, have also benefited from the Digital Intermediate process.

Every project is unique, yet requires the highest quality images demanded by the filmmaker's vision. With Cinesite's adaptability, experience and sophisticated technology, this goal can now be achieved.

http://www.laserpacific.com/news_highlights/news_rels_17.htm

quote:
Eastman Kodak Company announced today that it will concentrate all of its digital intermediate and other postproduction services for the motion picture and television industries in North America here at LaserPacific, a wholly owned subsidiary that the company acquired last October. LaserPacific CEO and President Emory Cohen says that the extraordinary capabilities at Cinesite Hollywood will be centralized as part of LaserPacific in their ongoing effort to focus on innovation and service for customers. The facility plans to open a fourth state-of-the-art digital intermediate suite in a theater environment before the end of the year.

"By focusing our resources, we are better positioned to provide our customers with the latest advances in hybrid and digital technologies and services," says Eric Rodli, president of Kodak's Entertainment Imaging division. "Our primary goal is to enable filmmakers to more easily and efficiently control and manipulate the images they create from pre-production through post-production. The evolution of digital intermediate technology will help ensure that audiences experience films the way they are intended to be seen on cinema and TV screens."



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Christian Volpi
Master Film Handler

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From: Arlington, NE
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 - posted 12-20-2004 08:59 AM      Profile for Christian Volpi   Author's Homepage   Email Christian Volpi   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I should probably know this after being in this business for almost 9 years but why are some prints scope and others flat?

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John Pytlak
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From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
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 - posted 12-20-2004 09:09 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Christian Volpi
I should probably know this after being in this business for almost 9 years but why are some prints scope and others flat?

"Scope" prints are used for the 2.39:1 aspect ratio, and allow much more efficient utilization of the area on the frame, but a 2X anamorphic lens is required to "unsqueeze" the image. "Flat" is normally used for 1.85:1, and is not nearly as efficient, but does not require an anamorphic lens.

Some tutorials:

Scope and Flat

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/lobby.htm

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/squeeze.htm

http://www.film-tech.com/manuals/H5041.pdf (article about advantages of "Scope" format)

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David Stambaugh
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 - posted 12-20-2004 09:28 AM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
jhawk: Thanks for that link.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

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From: Chicago, IL, USA
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 - posted 12-20-2004 10:00 AM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Under Technical Specs the AC article includes the ridiculous statement:

Super 1.85
(Super 35mm 2.35:1 for 1.85:1 extraction)


Um...what the hey does 2.35 have to do with anything? Just say Super 35mm for 1.85 extraction and be done with it.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

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 - posted 12-20-2004 10:46 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
M. Night films tend to Super-35 1.85.

Steve

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

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From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
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 - posted 12-20-2004 02:04 PM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Okey, here's another goodie of a question:

First, we had 2.66/1 (full frame image without soundtrack. Prints using external mag dubbers)

Second, we had 2.55/1 (full frame with 4trk mag only. no optical)

Third, we had 2.35/1 (full frame with full soundtrack. optical with standard sprocketholes and mag/optical using the "fox" sprockethole arrangement)

Where did 2.39/1 come into play? Just the decision to file out the aperture a bit more?

-thx Monte

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Lyle Romer
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 - posted 12-20-2004 02:41 PM      Profile for Lyle Romer   Email Lyle Romer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I always thought that the 2.39 came about (after 2.35) from adding more masking to the top and bottom of the frame to hide framelines/splices. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

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 - posted 12-20-2004 02:45 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Kraus
Some years back a camera rental house was touting the format claiming that the improvement was such that it made release prints look as sharp as dailies but I kinda doubt that was the case.
I remember the ads Clairmont Camera ran in issues of American Cinematographer back in the late 1980's specifically touting Super 1.85.

One area where Super35/Super 1.85 can do pretty well is in 70mm blow up prints. I remember how much better 70mm prints of shows like "The Abyss" looked versus their 35mm counterparts.

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