my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home

» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Weird problem with splices (Page 1)

This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2

Author Topic: Weird problem with splices Kevin Markwick Film Handler Posts: 43 From: Uckfield East Sussex England Registered: Sep 2004 posted 10-10-2004 06:53 AM                        Had real problems last night. Kept getting racks in a feature than has been running for two weeks. Further investigation revealed that the film had folded over causing two sproket holes to overlap. This is splicing tape we have been using for years with no problems and when I pulled the film back there was no gap, so the projectionist who made the film up had spiced the joins correctly. We have recently installed Kelmar cleaners on all our mechs and have been using Film Gaurd with spectacular results. So I suppose my question is could FG be weakening the joins causing them to fold over? I hope not as I am now a FG zealot and spread the word every chance I get. Any suggestions greatly appreciated.  |  IP: Logged Dominic Espinosa Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1172 From: Boulder Creek, CA. Registered: Jan 2004 posted 10-10-2004 11:12 AM                     What tape are you using? The only way I can think of that FG could weaken the splice would be if the splice tape was already pretty weak and the splice was very loose allowing excess filmguard to get down under it and disolve the adhesive. If the film is being litteral folded over onto itself there's something way more severe going on. I'm not sure what though.  |  IP: Logged John Anastasio Master Film Handler Posts: 325 From: Trenton, NJ, USA Registered: Sep 2000 posted 10-10-2004 11:56 AM                        Sounds to me like he's only making the splice on one side of the print.  |  IP: Logged Kevin Markwick Film Handler Posts: 43 From: Uckfield East Sussex England Registered: Sep 2004 posted 10-10-2004 12:03 PM                        Both sides are taped. We're not that green. The tape is supplied by Omnex here in the UK, a very reputable supplier. It is quite wide (4 perfs). Went through the whole print this morning and had to remake every join. As I said the joins had no gaps so I would summise they were made correctly. I asked the question because in 25 years of showing films having encountered most things I've never seen this. The only thing that is different in the box is FG.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-10-2004 01:01 PM                     It is due to print moving (platter) or rewinding (changeover) where the film is allowed to slip on itself and the wind is not being presented proper backtension the entire time. Seen it happen with many different kinds of tape, FG or not. I saw this quite frequently at a local Strong booth where prints had to be thrown over your shoulder and carried up and down stairs a lot. Those Strong rings like to bend easily. It was the bending that caused the pressure (and cinch scratches) which did that to the splices.  |  IP: Logged Kevin Markwick Film Handler Posts: 43 From: Uckfield East Sussex England Registered: Sep 2004 posted 10-10-2004 02:12 PM                        Thanks very much Brad. That would actually make sense as the problem appeared after we moved the print from a theatre running a platter to one with a tower. Learning from your experience, I would guess the part time Projy on Friday rewound the film without enough back tension on the tower. In too much of a hurry probably. In the words of Peter Sellers (that was the film) I shall have speaks with him.  |  IP: Logged Neil Robinson Film Handler Posts: 28 From: Coxhoe, Durham, UK Registered: May 2004 posted 10-10-2004 06:46 PM                     Kevin I had the same problem with splices when I was using Westrex towers, overlapped splices would run a couple of days and then end up the same way as you describe, in fact butt splices is all I could use, I think it is something to do with the re winding on the tower system, we now have platters and have never had that problem, I overlap about 1mm and use Jack Roe tape, having used tape from other companies in the UK I don't think you can get better than Jack Roe tape as it chemically resistant to oils, solvents and grease. Neil Robinson Gala Cinema Durham City UK.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-10-2004 07:18 PM                     Are these towers not providing a steady backtension during rewind? I wonder if they are free-wheeling like a Strong platter (un-modified) does during breakdown. That'll do it big time. (Plus tiny cinch scratches will develop, mostly toward the ends.)  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 10-11-2004 04:50 AM                        I've had serious backtension issues with practically every Westrex tower I've used, both running and rewinding. The tension has to be set manually and constantly adjusted during the show. Their fans say that when properly operated and meticulously maintained, this isn't a problem, but to my mind they're a pain in the bum and easily the worst long-play film transport device I've ever used. In one venue I worked a relief shift at, the chief had even left a pair of gardening gloves to supply the back tension by hand!  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 10-11-2004 05:50 AM                     quote: Leo Enticknap to my mind they're a pain in the bum and easily the worst long-play film transport device I've ever used Even worse than those star-shaped endless loop things at MOMI? I've only run towers a handful of times, but I don't like them much. The tension seems to be all over the place, on a projector with a fast start it's all to easy to snatch the film as you start the thing, the Westrex towers have a ridiculous rewind speed, and a lot of operators just seem to rewind the thing as fast as they possibly can, which certainly doesn't help when the film is wound slack. Of course, if you are running the same film in two consecutive shows, then you have no alternative to rewinding it fast. Most of the places where I've seen towers run the adverts and trailers on a 2k or 6k spool on the projector while the feature is rewinding on the tower, but even then, you often only get about 15-20 minutes to rewind the feature; that's much faster than I like to do it, certainly with poor tension on the film being rewound. Having said that, the Odeon Leicester Square ran a Cinemeccanica tower for many years. It was installed during the days of the Vic Xs, remained in use while they had the Vic 8s and was only removed when the new machines which can take large spools directly were installed during the last refurbishment a few years ago.  |  IP: Logged Kevin Markwick Film Handler Posts: 43 From: Uckfield East Sussex England Registered: Sep 2004 posted 10-11-2004 07:27 AM                        Sadly we don't have the space for a platter in the box where I had this problem over the weekend. Despite everyones reservations about towers this is the first time I have ever had a problem. As I said before my guess is the relief on Friday wound it a couple of times without sufficent tension on the take up spool during rewind. There are of course fors and againsts with towers. With a tower it's a lot easier to change the programme around, add or take out trailers, make repairs etc. If I'd had to remake all the joins on a platter I'd have been there all morning. The biggest downside is the rewind time. We have three boxes in different parts of the building and we are often forced to leave the tower rewinding while we take off another show. If you don't get the tension right, phew what a mess!  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 10-11-2004 08:47 AM                        quote: Stephen Furley Even worse than those star-shaped endless loop things at MOMI? True, not as bad as those. That having been said, they weren't really long play (70-80 minutes was about their maximum capacity - try loading any more and it would be on the floor within minutes) and certainly not a device which any serious cinema would ever have used, hence the reason I didn't include them. quote: Stephen Furley Having said that, the Odeon Leicester Square ran a Cinemeccanica tower for many years. Those are a very different kettle of fish to the Westrex towers, and if I had to have a tower at all, it would be one of those. They set their tension automatically - I'm not sure how, but seem to remember that they sense the changing weight of each spool and adjust a some sort of clutch in response. I worked in two places which had one (one of which was also MOMI, incidentally) and never had any problems. They gave a good, clean solid wind without being too violent or letting the film go slack, and without having to make any adjustments during the show.  |  IP: Logged Kevin Markwick Film Handler Posts: 43 From: Uckfield East Sussex England Registered: Sep 2004 posted 10-11-2004 09:34 AM                        The other good thing about the Cinemeccanica tower is the dead arm that shuts it down after rewinding. I ran a Westrex tower for years with no problem. One of the things to watch for is the carbon contact on the variac. If this wears down it can cause the erratic tension problems Leo describes.  |  IP: Logged Greg Routenburg Expert Film Handler Posts: 178 From: Toronto, ON, Canada Registered: May 2003 posted 10-11-2004 10:07 AM                     I gotta say, I've never seen this and am having a little trouble visualizing it. So the film creased on the frame line and hinged at the splice causing a 2 perf overlap? I use strong rings and have been for a few years now, is there anything that can be done when moving the prints around to avoid this happening?  |  IP: Logged Kevin Markwick Film Handler Posts: 43 From: Uckfield East Sussex England Registered: Sep 2004 posted 10-11-2004 10:44 AM                        You describe it perfectly Greg. Sproket four on the outgoing frame sitting over sprocket one on the incoming frame, as if you had too much overlap on a splice. Dang thing. I have to say a newcomer to the forum Brad and everyones input has been invaluable. Thank you all very much. Got it sorted now. It in fact turned out to be a combination of slack winding techniques by two of my staff that I didn't realise was happening. Firstly, because he had to take the film off the platter in screen three onto a spool for transfer to a tower. The problem here is that Cinemec platters have no back tension when going out to the make up table. The only thing you can do is apply a little pressure to the plate with your hand. He obviously didn't apply enough causing, as Brad suggested, the film to slip on the spool. Secondly, the relief rewound the film too fast on the tower compounding the problem. I have had serious words with all concerened. The print, however, shows no sign of scratching or crimping or anything else. Still in pristine condition thankfully. It's just very strange that this has never ever come up before, which is why I questioned FG weakening the joins. Phew!  |  IP: Logged

All times are Central (GMT -6:00)

This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2

Printer-friendly view of this topic

Hop To: Select a Forum: Category: Operations -------------------- Digital Cinema Forum Film Handlers' Forum Large Format Forum Ground Level Feature Info, Trailer Attachments & REAL Credit Offsets Category: Community -------------------- Film-Yak Film Handlers' Movie Reviews The Afterlife Bob Maar's Joke-A-Thon Category: Classified -------------------- Equipment and Supplies Wanted/For Sale Help Wanted/Seeking Employment Category: System -------------------- Software Beta Testing Forum

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.