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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » What happened to the color? (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: What happened to the color?
Peter Kerchinsky
Master Film Handler

Posts: 326
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 05-10-2004 05:18 AM      Profile for Peter Kerchinsky   Email Peter Kerchinsky   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just returned to work today and happened to glance a few minutes of NEW YORK MINUTE. Our print looked horrendous. It appeared to be completely washed out, as in watercolors! The first thing I noticed was no colors to faces on closeups, like all white or very pale looking. Some of the scenes appeared to be overlit or something. I'm not an expert at this but it looked really crappy. It almost appeared we had way too much light on the screen, which we don't, and it obliterated the color.
We're selling this crap to cash paying customers!
I realise this film is probably a one week wonder, but can't this industry do better? I thought Warners used Technicolor on most of their prints. This can't be on this one.
Honestly, this looked like a 10 year old faded Eastman print.
It's no wonder grosses are going down!
Probably made for cheap. [puke]

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Floyd Justin Newton
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 559
From: Phoenix, Arizona, USA
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 05-10-2004 06:59 AM      Profile for Floyd Justin Newton   Email Floyd Justin Newton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What's there to worry about? A print opens on a Friday, comes
out on DVD on Monday, and the print goes to recycle on Thursday
night!! THAT'S SHOWBIZ!!

fjn
Local 294 Ret.

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Mike Williams
Master Film Handler

Posts: 255
From: Knoxville, TN
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 05-10-2004 09:33 AM      Profile for Mike Williams   Email Mike Williams   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I saw it yesterday and noticed the CrAP codes really stood out. Usually, they are not THAT noticable.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-10-2004 10:57 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"New York Minute" production notes:

http://www.cinemareview.com/production.asp?prodid=2502

quote:
The challenges of filming a story that takes place in one day can be even more complex than shooting a period piece. “It was a constant exercise in matching and continuity,” Gordon acknowledges. “Before we filmed every scene, we asked ourselves ‘What time is it in the story? If it’s 10:22 a.m., then where were Jane and Roxy at 10:20? Where will they be at 10:30?’”

Gordon and director of photography Greg Gardiner used Digital Intermediate technology to balance the varying light quality from nine weeks of filming. (New York Minute has the distinction of being Warner Bros. Pictures’ first full-length live action feature to utilize the Digital Intermediate film process.)

“The Studio really supported me in going this route, so I could color match 47 days of different light and sky and progress the light from 7 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. on a single day,” Gordon explains. “It was also a thrilling opportunity to make the movie more eye-popping, color-wise. We’re doing some cool split-screens and fast-motion edits that couldn’t be done without Digital Intermediate – a process that it usually reserved for huge special effects films.”

To further underscore the tension of the escalating situations in which Jane and Roxy find themselves, Gardiner used natural light to “keep the look rich and stylish, yet real.”


I suspect it may have been the "look" they wanted.

AFAIK, most of the prints were NOT printed on Kodak VISION Color Print Film either.

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Peter Kerchinsky
Master Film Handler

Posts: 326
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 05-10-2004 02:07 PM      Profile for Peter Kerchinsky   Email Peter Kerchinsky   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you John for the reply.
I guess I'm one of those projectionists who believe 3-strip Technicolor was the best system ever. I see one occasionally on TV and wonder "what the hell happened to quality."

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-10-2004 02:23 PM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Agreed completely with Peter. From time to time, I've been known to show old IB Tech prints after-hours at various theatres (unadvertised, not for the public). Invariably, almost none of the theatre employees has ever seen an IB Tech print before and, also invariably, they are blown away by the quality. The usual reaction is "why don't modern films look that good?". [Smile]

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-10-2004 08:39 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Technicolor dye transfer prints were unique, and are sadly missed. Over the years, Kodak was a major vendor of the film materials for that proprietary process.

Yet many beautiful (and long lasting) prints have been made on Kodak color print films over the last two decades. KODAK VISION Premier Color Print film can produce very rich blacks and saturated colors:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/print/2393.jhtml?id=0.1.4.8.4.5&lc=en

quote:
KODAK VISION Premier Color Print Film / 2393. A film with a different look. Richer blacks. More saturated colors. Cleaner performance. A film worthy of the KODAK VISION Film family name.

The upper tone scale of VISION Premier Color Print Film is significantly higher in density than EASTMAN EXR Color Print Film, so shadows are deeper, colors are more vivid, and the image snaps and sizzles on the screen. The toe areas of the sensitometric curves are matched more closely, producing more neutral highlights on projection. Cinematographers can be more creative with lighting and exposure, and still see remarkable results.

Like its counterpart KODAK VISION Color Print Film, VISION Premier Color Print Film is coated on a polyester base without rem-jet, for a cleaner process and cleaner screen images. We've incorporated a processing-surviving, antistatic layer to reduce dirt attraction, and a scratch-resistant backing layer to improve projection life. And there are no color shifts during fades and dissolves. So, from set to lab to screen, day to day, you'll have more consistent performance.

These are not incremental improvements. They are quantum leaps forward in film technology. And with VISION Premier Color Print Film, you'll have the highest quality motion picture color print film Kodak has ever made.


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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-10-2004 10:02 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I guess I will be the disenting vote
In the glorious heydays of technicolor one had a color consultant (manditory)) who determinned the color pallet of a film to make the process look good even at the detriment of the artisitc talent of the production (all one has to look at is the work around Leon Shamroy did for the Black swan((that won the best color photo oscar)) to fool the technicolor consultant

Eastmans color and its competitors (I include gevart fuji and ANSCO (in the past)) have done a lot to further the goals and looks of the creative talents behind the films we watch even if that includes what some beleive is "colour done wrong"

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 05-11-2004 03:05 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Any idea why dye transfer mk. II has not really caught on for mass print runs as of yet? Is it significantly more expensive than conventional tripack release printing?

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Dominic Espinosa
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1172
From: Boulder Creek, CA.
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted 05-11-2004 03:54 AM      Profile for Dominic Espinosa   Email Dominic Espinosa   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I noticed that same color problem with "Mean Girls"...What's with the rash of teen-girl drama queen flicks?

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Peter Kerchinsky
Master Film Handler

Posts: 326
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 05-11-2004 04:05 AM      Profile for Peter Kerchinsky   Email Peter Kerchinsky   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey you all,
Please take one look at Warner's 1937 ADVENTURES OF ROBIN HOOD in 3 strip Technicolor as I did several years ago.
Those colors, on Kodak film, were vibrant and added alot to the film.
I don't believe and have never heard that a color consultant on the set had anything to do with how actors acted or how a scene was compromised.
Bless Natalie Kalmus. She may have been a real bitchy consultant to directors and such, but her final product was something to behold.
Gone are the days guys.
By the way [fu] to Leonard Doss who left Technicolor when Fox went to that crappy Deluxe color. Bad news Leonard.

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Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 05-11-2004 11:49 AM      Profile for Aaron Sisemore   Email Aaron Sisemore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Leo Enticknap
Any idea why dye transfer mk. II has not really caught on for mass print runs as of yet?
Assuming you are referring the the dye-transfer process used for the reissues of 'GWTW' and 'Oz' and several other new titles a few years ago, the answer is because Technicolor dismantled the dye transfer line probably shortly after striking the few IB prints that were made of 'Family Man' several years ago.

Most likely the equipment was sold as scrap to the highest bidder... [Frown]

-Aaron

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-11-2004 01:09 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
The reason for discontinuing the process that I was cited when I spoke with a gentleman at Fox and Technicolor was "uncontrollable shedding complaints". This was just after the release of Bulworth (Fox) and then about a year later (Technicolor lab).

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Thomas Procyk
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1842
From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 05-12-2004 10:20 AM      Profile for Thomas Procyk   Email Thomas Procyk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Shedding complaints?!?! That's rediculous. That's like Wal-Mart shutting down all of their stores because of uncontrollable complaints about the A/C. [Roll Eyes]

Certainly shedding was "controllable." John P. has reminded us countless times about the recent advances in Kodak Motion Picture Print Film that has considerably reduced shedding problems. Uncontrollable? Hardly. It was all about money.

I ran the IB Tech print of GWTW in 1998 and it shedded a lot less than most of the other prints we had. ("Celebrity" "You got Mail" and "Saving Private Ryan" come to mind)

Many current films would have looked practically orgazmic in Technicolor IB. Kill Bill Vol 1's colors were fantastic, but that bright yellow, red, and pink "Pussy Wagon" would have literally jumped off the screen in Technicolor!!! [Smile] Or that entire first scene, for that matter. Tarantino should have made more demands, like building a new plant.

=TMP=

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Jeff Joseph
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 131
From: Palmdale, CA, USA
Registered: Jun 2000


 - posted 05-13-2004 02:33 AM      Profile for Jeff Joseph   Author's Homepage   Email Jeff Joseph   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No, the shedding problem was fixed. It was shut down because of...are you sitting down?....money.

And, truth to tell, Technicolor never really told anybody that it was available. Virtually nobody in Hollywood today knows what dye-transfer printing is... and those that do, didn't know you could do it again.

And: When they would release a few prints in dye-transfer (such as "Pearl Harbor" or "Toy Story II") they never told anybody where to see them... we all (who cared) would wind up calling projectionists and asking them to check their prints for the grey soundtrack and so on...

And: Nobody shot movies with dye-transfer in mind. They picked God awful looking films to print in Tech (like "Meet the Deedles", for one, I swear).

And: Nobody at Technicolor knew what they were selling. That is, we had a "Tribute to Technicolor" at the Egyptian a few years ago... we had all the big shots from Technicolor come down; had several hundred people in the audience... they showed examples of "new" dye transfer (and we ran several OLD examples for everybody). At the end of the show, the person whose job it was to SELL this to the public told me that A)they didn't think anybody would show up or that so many people cared about this "technical stuff" and B)She had never seen old dye-transfer prints projected...and boy did they look swell!

Honest.

Better it should rest in peace.

Oh, and last I heard, of the 2 lines that were built, one was destroyed, but one was packed up in crates and is in storage at...CFI (which Technicolor now owns, of course).

A sad, but not surprising, story, all in all.

Jeff

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