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Author Topic: Old Film cement , what was it ?
Phil Blake
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 558
From: esperance western australia
Registered: Nov 2003


 - posted 04-23-2004 10:56 AM      Profile for Phil Blake   Author's Homepage   Email Phil Blake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Before we had tape splicers made all our joins by hand with a razor blade, scissors and a bottle of film cement , can anyone remember what the film cement was made up from ?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-23-2004 11:09 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kodak Film Cement contains a mixture of solvents (1,4-dioxane, dichloromethane, acetone, methanol) that dissolve acetate film base to create a weld between the two pieces of film when the solvents evaporate. There is also a small percentage of cellulose nitrate to aid adhesion, and a bad-smelling chemical to discourage "glue sniffing". Film cement should be used in a well ventilated area:

The MSDS for Kodak chemical products can be obtained at:

http://www.kodak.com/go/msds

Some "old timers" made their own film cement by dissolving triacetate film base (about 5% concentration) in acetone.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 04-23-2004 10:36 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Etheloid film cement was
Methyl Ethal Keytone Dioxin NitroCellulose from the old saftey notes I found

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 04-24-2004 05:53 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The International Federation of Film Archives' preservation guide suggests slightly different formulations for joining acetate to acetate, acetate to nitrate and nitrate to nitrate. I'll try and dig them out when I get a moment.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-24-2004 09:49 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Don't confuse DIOXIN with the solvent 1,4-Dioxane used in film cement.

DIOXIN is the extremely toxic chemical, often associated with the electrical industry, that persists in the environment and fish, along with PCBs.

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John Anastasio
Master Film Handler

Posts: 325
From: Trenton, NJ, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 04-24-2004 10:04 PM      Profile for John Anastasio   Author's Homepage   Email John Anastasio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I used to make up the film base/acetone mixture and it always worked like a charm. Sometimes we spliced film with it too.

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Don Sneed
Master Film Handler

Posts: 451
From: Texas City, TX, USA
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 04-25-2004 03:48 AM      Profile for Don Sneed   Author's Homepage   Email Don Sneed   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When I was kid (40 yrs ago)my dad had a Victor 16mm projector with sound,he had an portable rewind/splicing table, it had the film cement, we call it film glue, my dad was repairing some film & I picked up the bottle & took a big smell of this cement ("what an Maroon")WHOOOOAAAA WEEEEEE [Eek!] .... that stuff burnt my the insides of my nose (only a few seconds) so bad I wanted to cry !!! To end this story, I never done that again, then I learn next time you want to smell something srong, wave your hand over it to your nose..that 16mm glue was some strong stuff, but when I got older & started working at a theatre (1970)the 35mm film cement was much milder in scent, nothing like the 16mm glue, unless the 16mm film cement was old & aged, no telling how old the film cement was my dad had [beer]

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Bernard Tonks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 619
From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 04-25-2004 08:39 AM      Profile for Bernard Tonks   Email Bernard Tonks   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: John Pytlak
Some "old timers" made their own film cement by dissolving triacetate film base (about 5% concentration) in acetone.
Remember it well, now that does age me. [Eek!]

I once had an occasion wanting to join some nitrate stock to safety stock, which proved impossible to do with the new safety cement. In an emergency I overcome the problem by using black blooping ink which made a very secure join. Fortunately I had an intersprocket splicer, so the joins did not show and I wedged the soundtrack.

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Phil Blake
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 558
From: esperance western australia
Registered: Nov 2003


 - posted 04-27-2004 06:01 AM      Profile for Phil Blake   Author's Homepage   Email Phil Blake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the input everyone.

I have a little film cement left from my old days (and it still works!) , it was called Weld set , made in Aussie by National Theatre Supplies (long time gone now ). I am trying to fix up some old super 8 home movies and would like to use cement sliices as they seem to travel through projector better.

John maybe you could tell me if Kodak still made their film cement? , and while I am on the old road I was recently asked if Kodak still made 610 film (the old box browny camera)?

Thanks
Phil

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 04-27-2004 09:38 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Phil Blake
John maybe you could tell me if Kodak still made their film cement? , and while I am on the old road I was recently asked if Kodak still made 610 film (the old box browny camera)?

Kodak still makes film cement.

Many of the old Kodak roll film formats have been discontinued. However, some companies buy bulk film and repackage it in those old formats, so owners of classic cameras can still shoot pictures with them:

http://www.acecam.com/faq/127-620.html

quote:
Sources for 127 Film, 620 Film
and Other Discontinued Film Sizes
After you've bought that relic how do you use it when the film size is no longer made?

Two US sources carry many discontinued film sizes. Chicago retailer Central Camera sells fresh rolls of film in sizes that are no longer available elsewhere. Click on "Impossible to Find Items" on the home page. On the second page click on "127, 620 and Other Exotic Film Sizes." Prices are listed and Central Camera provides a toll free number for orders.

Since 1988, Film For Classics has been selling fresh black and white roll film for antique and classic cameras, including 127, 620 and 828 roll film. 127 and 620 film comes in color print, color slide and black and white. 828 film is available in color print film only. Hand spooled Kodak Plus-X is offered in these film sizes: 101, 103, 116, 122, 124 and 616. Processing is also available. Order by mail.

Hint: Veteran photographers know the only difference between 620 and 120 film is the spool the film is wound on. To save money, buy a few rolls of 620, save the spools and start rolling your own (in a darkroom, of course!) This is not quite as simple as it sounds. Wear cotton gloves and work in a clean environment. Attach the end of the 120 film to the paper backing with masking tape before you start respooling the film and paper backing on the 620 spool. You may need to adjust the piece of tape which holds the film to the paper backing at the start of the roll.

Some people protect the 120 film by rolling it onto an empty spool (either size) then rerolling it onto a 620 spool.



http://www.filmforclassics.com/

quote:
Film for Classics
About our Company
Since 1988 Film for Classics has been providing photographic film for users of antique/classic cameras all over the world.

We purchase roll film from Eastman Kodak Company in large rolls. We cut and spool this film using recycled spools and backing paper if these are available. If not, we use spools and backing paper of our own design and manufacture. All 620-sized film is respooled 120-sized film, replacing the larger 120 spool with the somewhat smaller 620 spool.

Processing services are available for 126, 127, 620 and 828 film sizes. * When you purchase processing mailers with your film, you can save 10% off the pre-tax, total cost.

All Film for Classics' films are guaranteed fresh and each roll is marked with an expiration date. If you are dissatisfied with any of our products or services for any reason, you may return the materials to us for a full and prompt refund.

User Processing of FFC Films
If you plan to process our films yourself, we suggest you follow Kodak's processing instructions. Kodak can be reached by calling 800.242.2424.


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