Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | my password | register | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Speaker placement in large auditorium (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: Speaker placement in large auditorium
John Hegel
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 166
From: Lake Mills, Iowa
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 03-13-2004 10:43 PM      Profile for John Hegel   Author's Homepage   Email John Hegel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am looking at the possibility of opening a movie theater in this auditorium, and was wondering if I can reuse any of the old sound system for either surround speakers or stage speakers.

Currently installed in the building as a "house system" is:

Stage right speaker stack (stage left stack is identical)
Altec MR II 564/299-16 (aimed at balcony)
Altec MR II 594/299-16 (aimed at main floor)
Altec 8127
Altec 8156

Under the balcony 8 feet in from the edge are (5) Altec M-100T

Amps:
Altec 9442
Altec 9444
Also a QSC that is not listed on the information I have at this time.

The main house speakers are recessed into the walls on both sides of the stage at mid-way between the floor and ceiling.

 -

 -

 -
(Sorry about the pictures, the B&W ones are the best I have of the whole facility)

Can these mains be used for anything in their current place for a cinema?

Thanks for your help

 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 03-15-2004 09:46 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You really want to place those main speakers BEHIND the screen.

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/cinema/cinedsgn.pdf

JBL Cinema Sound System Manual

 |  IP: Logged

David Favel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 764
From: Ashburton, New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 03-15-2004 05:17 PM      Profile for David Favel   Email David Favel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have pretty much the same set up. There were some unique adjustments done during the initial EQ, with L/R at the side & centre behind the screen.
Get friendly with your tech.

 |  IP: Logged

John Hegel
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 166
From: Lake Mills, Iowa
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 03-15-2004 10:43 PM      Profile for John Hegel   Author's Homepage   Email John Hegel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the information

Could they be used as a surround channel of any sort?

 |  IP: Logged

Kenneth Wuepper
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 987
From: Saginaw, MI, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 03-16-2004 06:48 AM      Profile for Kenneth Wuepper   Email Kenneth Wuepper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,

I am excited for your project. That is a great hall for the presentation of film. I have done some work in such spaces and may offer some suggestions.

With regard to the present "sound reinforcement system", the main speakers on either side of the stage: Are these separately amplified? That is, are the right and left speakers totally independant? Can they be made so?

The speakers along the front of the balcony are for "fill" to the area under the balcony. These are on a delay so that their sound synchronizes with the sounds from the main speakers beside the stage.

The picture does not indicate the location of the screen as far as upstage from the grand curtain. How far is the screen upstage? What space remains behind the screen? The BIGGIE! Is this a perforated sound screen?

If you can supply some of these details I can assist you further.

KEN

 |  IP: Logged

John Hegel
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 166
From: Lake Mills, Iowa
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 03-16-2004 10:50 PM      Profile for John Hegel   Author's Homepage   Email John Hegel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Ken

The speakers on either side of the stage are currently setup as mono. It would take little effort to change it to two channels since they are already tri-amped, however, I would have to change the crossover setup.

The screen that is currently in the building; I fell will be inadequate for the experience I want to offer, so I am going to install a new perf. screen. I plan on hanging it on the second fly behind the first (cant think of proper term) short black curtain, which will also double as the top masking. Being on the second fly the screen will be about 5 feet from the grand curtain.

I'm also planning on flying the stage speakers on the 3rd or 4th fly, so that if the situation calls for the use of the stage I can just drop and go. Being that the stage speakers will be in the air when the stage is in use I would like to keep the current house speakers in there location so that I can have sound, and also would be nice for the non-sync when the curtain is closed.

Behind the screen I would guess there is a good 20 feet to the wall, but there are 3 more sets of curtains before that wall. I'm assuming it would be best if I keep all of them closed during a film.

I hope that helps and sort of makes sense

 |  IP: Logged

William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-17-2004 12:34 AM      Profile for William Hooper   Author's Homepage   Email William Hooper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The short black curtain is called a border or teaser.
It usually hangs right in front of & functions to conceal an "electric", a pipe batten hung with lights. 1st border would be right in front of the first electric, which sound about like what you're talking about since you say it will be about 5' upstage of the grand.

So where will the electric go? In front or behind the screen; if in front, ready to snag & melt the screen, if in back, no longer well concealed by the teaser. You need your top masking hanging on the screen frame for umpty reasons, not the least of which is that scalloped edge will drive you & everyone else up the wall.

There was some previous discussion of a situation like this here, located in Yak, where the evil moderators consign any topic which dwells lengthily on cartouches or urns.

 |  IP: Logged

John Hegel
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 166
From: Lake Mills, Iowa
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 03-17-2004 01:44 AM      Profile for John Hegel   Author's Homepage   Email John Hegel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Now that I look at it more closely I agree with your concerns about the screen placement and it interfeiring with other things.

The proc. opening is 61 feet, if I installed a screen to match or nearly match that would it look weird to set the screen at mid stage?

If push came to shove I could remove some of the stuff that is in the air back stage.

In my opinion it is better to have this building standing with some lights missing then not standing at all.

I'll take some pictures of the back stage tomorrow to give everyone a better understanding of what I have to work with.

 |  IP: Logged

Kenneth Wuepper
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 987
From: Saginaw, MI, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 03-17-2004 07:00 AM      Profile for Kenneth Wuepper   Email Kenneth Wuepper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John,

You mention having the stage configured for cinema is the alternative to destroying the structure? What are you trying to do here? Is this a functioning building or one that is no longer used?

The hang in our big theatre looks like this:
Proscenium:
Fire Curtain
Grand Teaser
Grand Traveler
Blank Batten
First Electric A
First Electric B
Border Lights 1
Black Teaser
Motorized Traveler (Remotely Controlled)
Hurley Super-Glo Screen (23 x 46.5) with attached moving masking

This is the first 8 feet from the fire curtain and the stage is 36 feet deep with 50 line sets on counterweights.

 |  IP: Logged

John Hegel
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 166
From: Lake Mills, Iowa
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 03-17-2004 02:56 PM      Profile for John Hegel   Author's Homepage   Email John Hegel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This building is no longer in use, but still in excellent condition. It has been empty for 4 years and the last two without heat.

The whole property is in danger of reaching it demise through actions of city government due to other areas of the property are becoming eye sores. They have started taking actions to remove an area of the property, and was suggested by them that if they have to pay to remove anything that they are going to level the whole property.

 -

Off the record they said that if any area was being used by the public or a business they would back off and leave it alone, but that doesn’t sit well since I’m one of the few people that has looked into its use in the last 4 years.

 |  IP: Logged

Kenneth Wuepper
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 987
From: Saginaw, MI, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 03-17-2004 03:53 PM      Profile for Kenneth Wuepper   Email Kenneth Wuepper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am leaving for Buffalo NY tomorrow and will be back Monday. If you don't see any more posts it's because I am away not disinterested.

There may be many more issues in that property than the placement of screen and speakers. Was the property properly mothballed? How is the roof? What fire code issues are you aware of?
KEN

 |  IP: Logged

John Hegel
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 166
From: Lake Mills, Iowa
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 03-17-2004 10:22 PM      Profile for John Hegel   Author's Homepage   Email John Hegel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The entire structure has had the water lines drained and blown out along with anti-freeze in the drains. I'm sure they have missed a drain or two in the building but that in itself should not effect me.

The roof is a rubber membrane with 3" foam under it and rock on top. I was told by the former grounds keeper that it is the newest roof in the building and was installed in 97 or 98. From a visual inspection it looks good to me as well and appears not have no leaks. From the catwalks above the seating it looks like when they put the new roof on they also ran new PVC drain lines.

I had the city fire inspectors look at it about a month ago and the only concern they had was for me to have a professional look over the sprinkler system and add a drop above the future concession stand if serve popcorn and other hot foods. If I do use the kitchen below the auditorium they want me to replace the exhaust extinguisher with a more modern (co2?) system; but I do not plan on using it in my first years.

Some personal concerns I have: does anyone know about how much it costs to maintain an elevator or two for that matter?

The lighting system (colortran) is new as of 1995 and works now, but with my luck it will be the first thing to stop working.

The lobby walls and floor are marble or some other stone that looks like marble. It is in excellent condition, but with constant use should I be concerned about maintaining it? Also the safety of people walking on it when wet, from personal experience it tends to be slippery.

 |  IP: Logged

William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-18-2004 02:42 AM      Profile for William Hooper   Author's Homepage   Email William Hooper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For such a wide proscenium opening, what will likely determine the width of the screen is the available height. The width of the largest unmasked screen area will be scope, 2.4 times the height. So if you've got 25 feet of available height from the floor to a good spot with a little room for top masking, it will be 25' wide * 2.4 = 60' wide. In that theater, it seems like what will determine the height will actually be the height which can be seen from the last row of the seats under the balcony without cutoff by the balcony, which may be less. If it's 20', then 20' * 2.4 = 48' wide.

At 60' wide, that's a large, expensive bulb & lamphouse. Big picture, & a big house. A barn! And wide, you'd need a matte screen (rubbing the bottle to produce John Pytlak) & a 7k bulb.

quote:
If push came to shove I could remove some of the stuff that is in the air back stage.
You should be careful in design & make sure that the screen installation does not in any way interfere with the use of the stage equipment for stage shows: bus & trucks, bands, etc. Get a college stage tech textbook to find out what it's all for & how it works. A theater is a machine, & all those doodads do something. It would also be a good idea to get a book on law for public assembly businesses.

You will be in the business of putting butts in the seats, & filling that huge place with just movies likely wouldn't be as practical an idea as maintaining it as a performing arts center for the other uses above. You need to have as many shows as you can. You'll want to do rentals for everything you can think of: rock shows, dances & balls, movies, video shoots, etc. You'll have to consider how other venues around the area are positioned & marketed, & work from there to attract that business & possibly be a venue which can offer other features. If the symphony or touring shows hit another fancy venue nearby, you may need to remove the seats from the orchestra & become the Fillmore.

The acoustics look like they could be good in that theater, depending on the wall covering, but sheesh it's huge! How many seats?

quote:
The lighting system (colortran) is new as of 1995 and works now, but with my luck it will be the first thing to stop working.
Wow, huge expensive thing already in place.

quote:
The lobby walls and floor are marble or some other stone that looks like marble. It is in excellent condition, but with constant use should I be concerned about maintaining it?
The walls could be scagliola, which is painted art that looks like marble. You don't see a whole lot of scagliola any more, since the labor of producing it may now be more costly than just buying marble. The floors could be marble, but it's not a very standard floor covering except for stair treads, etc. because it's expensive, porous, & stains easily. Could the floors be terrazzo (stone aggregate set in concrete during construction & the whole thing polished flat & shiny)? Terrazzo you just wash, & wax if you want.

 |  IP: Logged

John Hegel
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 166
From: Lake Mills, Iowa
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 03-18-2004 12:26 PM      Profile for John Hegel   Author's Homepage   Email John Hegel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'll look into those books, they should be helpful in other aspects of managing this theater as well.

When it was built it had 2022 seats, but is said to now have 1850; I will take time one of these days and count them.

You are right about the acoustics. I have never seen a live performance in this building, but after talking to the past director of events she said that everyone professional or not admires the acoustics. She also said that some of the great singers that have walked the stage claim its the best they have ever seen.

quote:
Wow, huge expensive thing already in place.

That’s what I though. It has 160 dimmers for that stage.... doesn’t that seem like a lot?

The lobby is a cut stone of some sort. Hear are a few pics of it, maybe someone might know what it is.

 -

 -

 |  IP: Logged

William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 03-19-2004 03:54 AM      Profile for William Hooper   Author's Homepage   Email William Hooper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I have never seen a live performance in this building, but after talking to the past director of events she said that everyone professional or not admires the acoustics.
There's a sort of maxim that a theater with great acoustics for unreinforced (i.e., acoustic, no amps) sound can be pretty bad for shows which use amps & speakers, & vice versa. The old silent movie 'palaces' were built for excellent acoustics with orchestras, organs, etc., but when talkies arrived, they were FAR too bangy & had to have absorptive material & devices stuck everywhere possible: ceilings, walls, etc. With the arrival of pink noise, rta's & better eq, those houses can now sound pretty good, but as an example THX is having to make them a special category because it's hard for them to hit the THX specs.

quote:
That’s what I though. It has 160 dimmers for that stage.... doesn’t that seem like a lot?

You never have enough lights or circuits.

quote:
The lobby is a cut stone of some sort. Hear are a few pics of it, maybe someone might know what it is.
Is it outside? If so, it wouldn't be scagliola. The curved areas would generally mean it wasn't marble since that's a lot of expense & waste, but if it's something like a municipal structure, they tended to get hornswoggled into spending HUGE amounts of money for things like real marble when commercial structures used materials which only looked like marble. It could be some later synthetic material; when was it built?

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2018 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.