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Author Topic: Do foil cues have any effect on Xetron cue detectors? Ken Lackner Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1907 From: Atlanta, GA, USA Registered: Sep 2001 posted 02-19-2004 11:12 AM                     My theater has a mix of equipment. Half the screens have Xetron automation that requires the Opticue, and the rest have RGM automation and FM-35's that require foil cues. To avoid having to recue prints when we move them, we just put both kinds of cues on when we build the print. I have been noticing that in some of the Xetron houses, the lights are going down when they shouldn't be. I cannot find any reason why they should be doing this unless the foil cues have just the right reflective properties to actually work with the Xetron cue detectors. Is this possible? If so, I can put the foil cues on the other side of the film since the FM-35 is a proximity detector, right?  |  IP: Logged John Walsh Film God Posts: 2490 From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way Registered: Oct 1999 posted 02-19-2004 01:34 PM                     Neumade has used two different types of cues in the recent past (10 years.) They both are reflective, however the Opticue is made from aluminum-foil-like stuff. Since it is 'metal' it might trigger a proximity detector. Putting the FM35 cues on the non-emulsion side should work. Is it possible the sensor is just falsely triggering? I ask because you mentioned the lights are going down when there shouldn't be. It sounds like you are saying this happens without any cue at all going by. We have had problems where random light will reflect from something one time, falsely triggering a 'one' cue.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-19-2004 01:39 PM                     I'm not familiar with Opticue -- do those go along the edge of the print? You might try using a cue across the frameline for the FM35. Despite what some people will tell you, nobody will notice a frameline cue and it may solve your problem.  |  IP: Logged Aaron Sisemore Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day! Posts: 3061 From: Rockwall TX USA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 02-19-2004 11:47 PM                     Manny, you may have seen Opticues before and cursed at them a good bit: They are those gigantic (approx 3/8" x 1/2") 'sparkly' metallic cues that are placed in the center of the print (usually in groups of three) and if peeled off they leave a huge amount of uber-sticky adhesive behind that even FilmGuard has difficulty in dissolving. -Aaron  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 02-20-2004 12:22 AM                     quote: Despite what some people will tell you, nobody will notice a frameline cue and it may solve your problem. Oh Manny, I'm ashamed to know you now! ANY cue that is placed in the picture area of the film is visible on scope movies, and many are visible on flat movies too. The designers of automations/cue detectors that use center cues should be taken out back and shot. There is simply no need for that nonsense.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-20-2004 09:50 AM                     Aaron: You're right. I've seen those. They suck. They truly, truly suck and I hate hate hate getting a print with those. Brad: I think you're just being too picky. We're talking about 1/24 of a second along the frameline. In most real-world cases, I'm willing to bet that the scope ratio is a bit tighter than 2.39:1 anyway. Customers don't really "see" those cues. They're too busy trying to beat everybody to the exit.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-20-2004 11:21 AM                     I use the center cue in my FM-35 but it's only the tail cue at the end of the feature. I use the "001" cue for lights down when the feature starts and the "100" cue for lights up at the credits. The "010" cue comes at the end. If you hide it in the black film it's hardly visible. Second, since it's at the end of the program it doesn't matter. I suppose I could use the "101" cue but I'm too lazy to cue two pieces of tape for one cue.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-20-2004 01:07 PM                     With the fabulous CA21 automation, the cues are "one size fits all." Any cue will trigger the next step in the program. That is, if you connect all three sensors from the FM35.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 02-20-2004 01:39 PM                     Randy's got the right idea here. When forced to deal with a 3 cue system, my preference is to put the feature cue in the center. That way it is hidden on a piece of opaque film just before the feature. However Randy's idea is a good close second. Yet for some reason it seems everyone likes to use the center cue at the beginning of the end credits. Manny, why would anyone want to deal with 3 seperate cues with the mighty CA21? One that repeats on the inboard is fine and dandy.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-20-2004 01:44 PM                        Whoever set up the TA-10/FM-35 setup at the 6-plex was smart. Light cues and end of show cues use the edges of the film. Only sound cues (which are always placed on black leader/mag film) use the center position. As an audience members, I always dread the fadeout after the final scene before the credits start, as it is usually accompanied by a big black blob on screen (the automation cue). It's tacky and annoying and ruins the final moment of most films for me. This is a common sight even in manual houses, since few operators bother to remove the cues.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-20-2004 01:55 PM                     I think the idea of using a center cue at the credits is translated (badly) from the concept of the "cross cue". On a contact style cue reader the inboard and outboard cues had functions and the third, cross cue shorted the two contacts together to acheve the third function. When the 3-cue readers came along, the people who installed them and set them up so that the center cue had the same function as the old cross cue. BTW: The FM-35 will read an amazingly small patch of foil if it needs to. Personally, I specify that cues be 3 or 4 sprocket holes long. I know it's overkill but I'd rather err on the side of reliability. A larger cue has a better chance of getting picked up if it's slightly out of position. My cues are set up for least visibility just to give me the luxury of being able to have larger cues and increased reliability in reading them.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-20-2004 04:06 PM                     I connect all 3 of the FM35 sensors because you never know who's going to operate the equipment in the future. If somebody came along with the edge cues, they'd be fine. If someone came along and wanted centre cues, those would work also. I've seen those little edge cues fall off; I don't feel comfortable with them. And I hate those multi-sprocket fold-over-the-edge cues. Some "contact" sensors need them but the FM35 does not. I use the cross cue because I feel more secure that those cues stay in place; I've never lost one. All of my cues are cross cues on a frame line. If the movie is flat there is no way you will ever see it. If the movie is scope, you probably still won't see it because all of these scope images are slightly cropped. This cue tape is really skinny. I don't see any point in changing my technique if it won't really improve anything. I'm certainly not about to change just to improve somebody's perception of my projection aesthetics and skills.  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-20-2004 06:49 PM                        i think i would prefer a center cue at the start of the credits rather than the end. why? because as the image (usually) cuts or fades to black, there's a split second before one's eyes adjust enough to distinguish between two levels of black. of course, it still needs to be on a frameline. but i really don't like center-only cues at all. you can't feel them on inspection, and they can be hard to peel without nicking the emulsion. i'd rather use inboard+mid or outboard+mid. in addition to avoiding those two issues, it's easier center on the frameline and thus often less visible than a center-only cue. carl  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 02-20-2004 10:51 PM                    I don't like any cue I can see or detect (by focus or sideways shift). Sadly, that applies to almost all of them. Cue the automation, fine...but don't cue me in the audience that the lights are about to come up.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-20-2004 10:57 PM                     So Steve...how do you feel about cue dots? I hate seeing those. They remind me that 20mins have passed. I don't like knowing exactly how far I am into the movie, or how near to the end I am. Cue dots take me out of the experience by making me mindful of the mechanics of the presentation. I think that we -- as showmen -- have to resign ourselves to the fact that there are a host of things that will get in the way of our absolute enjoyment of a moviegoing experience. I actually stopped going to the movies for a while because I felt that I was ONLY seeing the mistakes. The average person tolerates these things quite well because, for them, these things don't signify anything. I've talked to several friends about CAP Code and none of them have "seen" it yet. None of my friends ever noticed cue dots until I pointed them out. Now they see them everytime (and wish I had never mentioned them). I don't care how carefully a print is assembled for a platter showing -- I will see the splices. So in those cases, I'm bothered by cue dots *and* the reel join. That's life. We're doomed. That's all there is to it.  |  IP: Logged

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