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Author Topic: How often should you rewind prints in storage?
Matthew Bailey
Master Film Handler

Posts: 461
From: Port Arthur,TX
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 01-10-2004 07:29 PM      Profile for Matthew Bailey   Email Matthew Bailey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does anyone know how often,how many times or when should you rewind prints in storage regardless of whether or not old or new or unprojected? I'm thinking to ventilate the print & also
loosen it(some prints,even trailers are solidly wound tight.).
Anything else concerning this subject?

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Bruce McGee
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1776
From: Asheville, NC USA... Nowhere in Particular.
Registered: Aug 1999


 - posted 01-11-2004 09:11 AM      Profile for Bruce McGee   Email Bruce McGee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think that it is a good idea to exercise the print at least once a year.

I have an electric rewind that does a super job of keeping the film tight and smooth.

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William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-12-2004 12:23 AM      Profile for William Hooper   Author's Homepage   Email William Hooper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I remember reading a story a few yearss ago about when the 1912 RICHARD III (the earliest US feature film, previously presumed lost) was turned over by a collector and copied: the guy who'd had the print since the silent days maintained it (and the rest of his collection) by keeping them in the basement & rewinding them by hand once a year. Port Arthur is probably not approaching the storage conditions of "cool, dry place" that he had, so there's a variable.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 01-12-2004 01:40 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
First off, standard archival practice is to store elements wound base out, because it minimises stress to the emulsion caused by base scratches and of accidental damage when handled. As William points out, the bottom line for long term film storage is: as cold and as dry as you can manage. If these are acetate prints either vented containers (which can be created simply by drilling a few holes in the side of the can) or molecular sieves (small bags of a chemical compound which sit in the can and absorb the acetic acid fumes from decomposition) are a good idea. If you go for the hole-drilling option make sure your storage area is well-ventilated.

If you do rewind regularly you want to wind the element tight enough to prevent layers of film from abrading against each other and potentially causing scratches when handled, wound or lifted; but not so hard that the emulsion of one layer is being pressed into the base underneath it.

Relating to William's Richard III anecdote, I've often heard it said that nitrate manufactured between the very beginning and around WWI is some of the most durable film stock ever made, possibly because good quality, low acidity wood pulp was used to produce the cellulose and the manual, flat-casting methods before industrial scale base manufacture with band-casting plant kicked in evaporated a greater proportion of nitric acid than was later the case. I've also heard it said that 1940s nitrate some of the most volatile and the first to decompose because cheap, highly acidic pulp was used as a wartime austerity measure and the demand for base was at its highest for any point during the nitrate period.

I've certainly seen evidence to back that up: a year or so ago we got a 1912 print of a local newsreel covering a football match. It had spent most of its life at room temperature and humidity. It was in very good condition, float test negative, had barely shrunk at all and the lab we sent it to for preservation duping was able to make the polyester negative by straightforward continuous contact printing. A few months later I was asked to look at two elements from 1943: they had already gone sticky and were beyond saving - a bonfire in the car park job.

This book, though mainly about colour fading, contains chapter and verse on film preservation environments.

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Jeff Taylor
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 601
From: Chatham, NJ/East Hampton, NY
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 01-12-2004 01:46 PM      Profile for Jeff Taylor   Email Jeff Taylor   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Exercising once or twice a year is fine, but on the assumption we're talking about release prints SHOW THEM instead. Film doesn't like to be ignored.

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Dan Lyons
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 698
From: Seal Beach, CA
Registered: Sep 2002


 - posted 01-12-2004 06:33 PM      Profile for Dan Lyons   Email Dan Lyons   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
standard archival practice is to store elements wound base out,
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!! [puke]

That's the worst thing to do; it will lead to the film develping a curl! An archive search will bring up threads with more detail on this.

Danny

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Jeffry L. Johnson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 809
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 01-12-2004 07:31 PM      Profile for Jeffry L. Johnson   Author's Homepage   Email Jeffry L. Johnson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A quote from AMIA-L:

quote:
SMPTE Recommended Practice (RP)-131-2001 which replaces the 1994 version,
which has recently been trial published in the SMPTE Journal, as follows:

4.3.2 Storage enclosures:

"The recommendations in this clause are taken from ANSI/PIMA IT9.2 and 4.1
of ANSI/PIMA IT9.11. Refer to those documents for additional information.
Motion-picture film is wound on reels or cores and stored in roll form.
Rolls should be wound emulsion in and title in, but not under extreme
tension. Rolls mounted on cores, particularly those longer than 500 ft,
should be stored flat (horizontal) unless the core itself is carried on a
horizontal spindle to prevent the lower part of the film from supporting the
load of the core. If such rolls are on spools which have flanges, a spindle
is not required since the flanges support the weight of the roll."

Storage and Handling of Processed Film
quote:
Extended Storage Time - 10 Years or More

Color dyes are more prone to change than silver images when kept for extended periods of time. The following minimum guidelines are suggested for keeping films for 10 years or more:

• Adequately wash the film to remove residual chemicals such as hypo. See ANSI PH 4.8-1985 for recommended levels and a testing method for residual hypo.

• Some color films designed for processes other than ECN-2 and ECP-2D may require stabilization during processing (e.g., some reversal films using process VNF-1). Always follow recommended process specifications and formulas.

• All film should be as clean as possible, and should be cleaned professionally. If you use a liquid cleaner, provide adequate ventilation. Adhere to local municipal codes in using and disposing solvents.

• Keep film out of an atmosphere containing chemical fumes. See "Effects of Contaminants" above.

• Do not store processed film above the recommended 21°C (70°F), 20 to 50% RH for acetate or polyester.

• Wind films emulsion-in and store flat in untaped cans under the above conditions.

Additional information can be obtained from ISO 2803 or ANSI PH1 43-1985, "Practice for storage of processed safety photographic film."


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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 01-12-2004 10:59 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
From Leo's Amazon link:

quote:

The Permanence and Care of Color Photographs: Traditional and Digital Color Prints, Color Negatives, Slides, and Motion Pictures by Henry Wilhelm, Carol Brower

Customers who bought this book also bought:

• Ounce of Preservation: A Guide to the Care of Papers and Photographs by Craig A. Tuttle

• A Preservation Guide: Saving the Past and Present for the Future by Barbara Sagraves

• Real World Color Management by Bruce Fraser

• Books from The Harry Potter Series.

Harry Potter?

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Dan Lyons
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 698
From: Seal Beach, CA
Registered: Sep 2002


 - posted 01-13-2004 12:36 AM      Profile for Dan Lyons   Email Dan Lyons   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:

"The recommendations in this clause are taken from ANSI/PIMA IT9.2 and 4.1
of ANSI/PIMA IT9.11. Refer to those documents for additional information.
Motion-picture film is wound on reels or cores and stored in roll form.
Rolls should be wound emulsion in and title in, but not under extreme
tension.

Well, when you encounter great 50's or 60's IB Tech features and trailers that have a curl and focus problems due to the previous owner storing them that way, you'll be telling the SMPTE to shove it, just as I am. [fu]

Danny [Wink]

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 01-13-2004 01:43 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!

That's the worst thing to do; it will lead to the film develping a curl! An archive search will bring up threads with more detail on this

Not if stored in reasonably constant temperature and humidity it won't, and if there is even the slightest bit of shrinkage the stress on the emulsion caused by 'stretching' it outwards will cause a lot more damage than any base curl will. Remember that, as a general rule, when film shrinks, it's the base which shrinks, as either nitric or acetic acid parts company from the solid. As the base shrinks relative to the gelatine and emulsion layers it applies stress to the latter.

There might be an argument for storing polyester elements emulsion out given that it doesn't shrink in the same way that nitrate or acetate does, but I don't know of any archive which does this as a matter of policy.

And I've certainly found that release prints (of all bases) on a platter tend to be much happier emulsion out; but they're doing a different job from elements which are being kept for long-term preservation. Assuming it's spent most of its life being stored at room temperature and humidity (or worse), any '50s or '60s acetate element is likely to be significantly shrunk and give problems in projection. That problem is likely to be worse if it's spent half a century wound emulsion out. I suppose that by then reversing it you might help to 'stretch' the base a little, in the same way as if you take an element that's spent several decades wound on a 2" core or tiny spool hub and then put it on a 3" core for a few weeks followed by a 4" one, you can relieve the base curl a bit, but at the risk of some emulsion cracking.

Steve: I'd hazard a guess that Amazon don't shift too many copies of Wilhelm & Brower and that the 'previous customers' here means one or two individuals who bought a load of books about photographic preservation followed by some shit lit for light relief. But maybe Hogwarts can teach you some spells to correct coupler dye fading though... [Smile]

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 01-13-2004 03:47 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
I think we're pretty much talking about acetate films here...

I have yet to see an example where storing the film emulsion in was superior to emulsion out, both in regular projecting as well as long term storage. I don't doubt Leo's findings, as he is a professional archivist, but I haven't seen those results here. If I screen a print that hasn't been ran in a year that was wound emulsion in, the focus drift from the head to tail of the reel is unbelieveable, the registration looks like it was printed at Deluxe and the film is badly warped. After a year or so in storage emulsion out, all of these issues go away (except sometimes the warping is permanent). This is the case even when running off of 6000 foot reels...razor sharp focus from end to end of the reel!

When films stored emulsion out are pulled and ran after sitting for a few years, they run fine and dandy for me, just like new. This isn't something I have seen on occasion, but is repeatedly and an absolute. Because of that, I cringe when I get an older title wound emulsion in, because it means I have to park my barstool by the projector and screw with the focus the whole movie! [Mad]

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 01-13-2004 04:20 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think we're dealing with two issues: mechanical performance of the film base in projection and preservation of the emulsion layer in such a way that when the time comes, you can get the best possible dupe off it. When a film runs through a printer (of any description) it moves a lot more slowly than in projection, and when it runs through a telecine the motion is (usually) continuous. So it is not under the same mechanical stress as the high-speed intermittent motion imposed by a projector. Neither is it subject to very rapid heating and cooling.

If the main reason why you're keeping prints in storage is in order to be able to project them every now and again, that could be a reason for emulsion-out storage, especially if they've already been stored in that orientation for many years before you got them. But, as I understand it, the quid pro quo is a greater risk of emulsion damage. BTW, this isn't just some crazy idea I've come up with - as Jeffry points out, it's what the scientists who've researched this for SMPTE (and FIAF) have concluded.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 01-13-2004 04:47 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
That's an interesting take on projection vs. duping. Maybe you have something there. [Cool]

Anyway for clarification of what I have seen, an old print stored emulsion in always causes projection problems until it has been wound emulsion out for some time (usually a year or two), at which point it is in reasonable projection condition (focus and registration issues), but commonly still suffers from warpage.

An old print stored emulsion out has no problems whatsoever when projected and sees no warping issues.

Those are my consistent findings over the years. These findings don't seem to matter whether the film was stored at room temperature in a cardboard box for many years, or if it sat in a 90F warehouse in sealed cans. Of course there are others who will report exactly the opposite findings, so there's got to be something else going on that we are missing.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 01-13-2004 04:53 AM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'd guess that the bottom line is that the temperature and humidity at which an element has been stored over a long period of time is a much bigger factor than the winding orientation.

The next time I'm in London at the BFI library I'll try to find time to do an SMPTE Journal trawl to try and find out just why the recommended archival storage practice is base out...

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 01-13-2004 07:46 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have found even for projection that emulision in still is better longterm storage. And we regularly show a lot of material stored away for long periods of time with now issues of focus drift (even with 7K lamps)

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