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Author Topic: Is 70mm Gone For Good? Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 12-21-2003 05:32 PM                     First, some ground rules: I'm not referring to revivals and repertory screenings. And I'm not looking to get into a technical discussion about how/why 70mm is better than 35mm. Suffice it to say that I am well aware of the full potential of 70mm. I'm trying to avoid theory. I'm asking your opinion as to whether we will see mainstream releases in 5/70 format as we did back in the 70's and 80's when many 35mm releases enjoyed optical blowup to 70mm with 6-Track magnetic sound. If you think that 70mm could return as a viable mainstream format then let's hear your thoughts on what it would take to make that happen. By the same token, if you believe -- as I do -- that traditional 70mm (5/70) will be reserved as a special venue, reiussue/restoration, novelty format then let's also hear your take on why you feel that way. One more thing -- if you wish to respond to a post (or part thereof) please make an effort to state where you stand in the process. It's more interesting than a simple "hit-and-run" reply. Here's where I stand: In light of the fact that the advent of digital soundtracks brought about the end of the era of 70mm blowups, doesn't it imply that the main reason for going with 70mm was for the enhanced sound? Certainly, image quality couldn't have been a great a factor, because the films were still being shot on 35mm -- and film grain was definitely an issue. Consider also the enthusiasm over the impending digital conversion. I am not foolish or naive enough to seriously argue that digital "rivals" 35mm but I have noticed that the exhibition industry has, for the most part, "screwed the pooch" and the plain fact is that 35mm in the hands of kids -- even college kids -- does not live up to its potential. Thus, many exhibitors are helping -- perhaps unwittingly -- to bring about the demise of 35mm as the exhibition standard. Digital won't necessarily *be* better, but it will *seem* better and that's what finally counts. And I don't think that it's fair to characterize the studios as being evil or unfeeling or anything like that. The American film industry has always been just that: an industry. Surely there are elements and incidents of artistry but what truly matters -- what has always mattered -- is box office returns. Theatrical runs are getting shorter and shorter, as is the gap between theatrical and home-video launches. Once the enemy of the film industry, video has become something of a savior, gradually becoming the ultimate release format in more than one sense. So with all of that in mind, the more relevant question isn't whether 70mm is gone...but, rather, how much longer does 35mm have?  |  IP: Logged Kevin Wale Expert Film Handler Posts: 167 From: Guymon, OK USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 12-21-2003 08:53 PM                     I think I stand on the ground of large format being the future. With Revolutions being simultaneously relased on IMAX and 35mil, and EpII and Matrix Reloaded having successful runs in IMAX I really think that the trend is being set. I also think that when people really compare the quality that can be achieved on 70mil film when shot for it and mastered for it, they will lose interest in digital because it will stil seem like 35 mil becasue of the similar screen size. I would love for the large screen formats to be in the wider ratios rather than the IMAX ratio, but at that size it might just be too wide and the seats would have to be far enough away that you might find yourself back where you started from as far as perceived screen size goes. Digital seems to already be losing some of it's luster with the average Joe. I think people are sensing that it just isn't delivering. I don't hear people talking about it like I used to. IMAX still seems very 'special venue,' but that can be changed very quickly. If it can be figured out how to effectively do the scope ratio in such a large format, I think 70 mil will return as the mainstream format replacing IMAX despite the issues making that so problematic. Those issues are just a matter of getting some smart people together and hashing it out to find the optimum values needed. If it can be cheaper than digital and IMAX to build, it might just take off. The cost of the film is where the studios will of course drag thier feet and all this depends on whether or not the numbers can continue to increase year after year as they are now. Which means none of these changing of the gaurds will happen until an emergency takes place. Nothing to do with evil anyones, just with the fact that from the exhibitor leval on up, the costs will be hard to ignore. Of course my point of view is very limited compared to the people who are developing technologies behind closed doors. Perhaps there is something better than we have quite thought of in the works somewhere by someone we'd least expect.  |  IP: Logged Richard Cieplechowicz Film Handler Posts: 16 From: San Antonio, TX Registered: May 2002 posted 12-21-2003 09:07 PM                     Regal seems to see a potential for 70mm by installing a 70mm in our newest facility in St. Louis. As for large format in general we have been doing very strong business with Matrix on IMAX and anxiously awaiting Harry Potter for our IMAX screen.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 12-21-2003 09:51 PM                    I tend to think that even if you shot 65mm and promoted the 70mm presentation at a certain theatre (as opposed to others showing the same film in 35mm) a lot of people would pay little attention. If asked about the fantastic image quality they would probably say oh...yeah, I guess so...I hadn't really noticed. Some would come just because they saw it in the ad just like they might go out of their way to see a DLP show. But what we might think of as dramatically better they might not really think was all that special. What they are getting now with the IMAX blowups is a much larger screen. That might be a more workable option to combine 70mm with a substantially larger screen. And a more reasonable way of showcasing "big" films because frankly, the whole IMAX blowup thing is kind of silly.  |  IP: Logged Erick Akers Arse Kicker Posts: 201 From: Dallas, TX, USA Registered: May 2001 posted 12-21-2003 09:56 PM                     Manny, My opinion about 70mm is that without a big push from all major players is that we may never see it as anything more than a novelty. A whole gereration has passed without ever experiencing a 70mm presentation (blow up or not). In this industry; we have to deal with the Walmart mentality, as we follow along blindly governed by trends. That 20 & 30 plex seemed like a novelty when the first few started to sprout up. Now we have movies for the masses for every mood, after all, variety is the spice of life. I do believe that 70mm has the power to win over this new generation, and I also feel that DTS sound makes handling 70mm much less difficult for the average multiplex Booth Jockey. With DTS, gone are the days of degausing your equipment, and there's less liability for the operator than the days of mag track. (BTW, some films with Mag tracks can be and are currently being erased and completely re sounded. BARAKA is a perfect example, the Dolby A tracks were erased and replaced with Dolby SR) Like Brad always sez, "There's more to running 70mm, and it's best left to the professional!" But wait, If we scare off the projectionist that want to learn how to handle 70mm then it has no chance of returning to the mainstream at all. I have been also been asking my self why theater owners can't band together and make a real effort to promote the format? IF it's not in the public eye how can anyone know any better? GET THOSE 70MM PRINTS OUT OF THE DEPOTS AND SHOW THEM!!! A truely organised coast to coast effort could work, but you would have to get a major theater chain to sign off on a deal like this,as well as every Independant Theater owner capable of featuring 70mm. A push effort If you will, advertise by any means necessary Radio, TV, Newspaper. Also, a petition signing at the venues featuring such a promotion sent to the right people might not be ignored any longer. As is, the only 70mm we will ever see will consist of reperatory,revival, and ride film.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 12-21-2003 10:03 PM                     The trouble with the "big push" approach is that I don't believe that theatre owners/operators have any interest in seeing 70mm make a comeback. IMHO, it's projectionists that are in love with the format. Truth is, were it not for the question of financing the equipment, theatre operators would embrace dCinema in a heartbeat.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-21-2003 10:04 PM                     Actually I would rather see the return on a large scale of VistaVision and Technirama camera work and projection. Its still alot more practical and less expensive type of system to create large format images. Not only can it utilize all existing 35mm film stocks but it would also allow large format dye transfer prints to be made. Alot of people feel that both of these formats provided the highest quality image that could be obtained for cinema use. Both can also be release printed to 70mm making it a more universal system. I would still like to see 70mm prints made at least for important screening locations. Unfortunately on a large scale its really impractical and that has been proven in the past by ow many prints are ruined in the first week of showing. Mark Mark  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 12-21-2003 10:37 PM                     I think there is some scant possibility of a return to using 5/70 prints for giant screen shows. Most IMAX theaters have a 35mm projector for showing mainstream films. So it should be no big deal at all for them to use a "universal" projector that handles both 4/35 and 5/70. Studios would get image brightness and overall quality every bit as good as any of those IMAX DMR things. They'll save a good amount of money on the difference in cost between a 5/70 and 15/70 print. The Matrix sequels had 'scope aspect ratios, as will the upcoming Harry Potter installment. 5/70 gets just as much projected image onto an IMAX screen as 15/70 with those kinds of films since the images have to be heavily letterboxed to fit the aspect ratio. Overall, however, for 5/70 to really work the standards on image quality have to be raised above the "just good enough" 2K/HD video levels. 65mm photography and 4K-6K renderings would make a big difference. IMHO, audiences would appreciate the difference of the 65mm format's much sharper image potential. Most just haven't had the opportunity to do so in the couple decades. "Far and Away" and "Tron" were both financial disappointments. Films like "Baraka" and "Hamlet" did not have broad appeal either. It will take something besides some period dress up piece or bible epic to get audiences enthused about 70mm. It is about damned time that an action movie or some other genre a hell of a lot more popular utilized the format.  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 12-22-2003 12:08 AM                  Re: Thread title.... Ummm, YES! >>> Phil  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-22-2003 12:50 AM                     A couple of points 1 Baraka had at least in Canada had from day1 SR mag prints 2 35mm Blowup to 70mm release will still have a better image than a 35mm to 35mm as most of the visible grain and jitter are in the 35mm print and since the print magnification is less it will be sharper and better detailed 3 The use of the lazy8 projector format will never work the projector cannot be dual format 4 Many of the large format theatres have dual 35/70mm machines 5 70mm prints do cost more to make more to ship and occupy far more space on a platter and add signifigantly to the weight that it must control so that is an issue 7 2k DLP is not equal to a 35mm neg to 35mm print in quality 8 70mm has outgrossed many 35mm screenings of the same title a point in fact is after the closing in 35mm houses in Toronto we brought in the 70mm print of Titanic and ran it to sold out houses for over 4 months doing about 90,000 patrons Outgrossing the Toronto 35mm run 9 Yes it requires a higher level of operator knowledge to run properly and many of the convertable"35/70 dual purepose platters" do 70mm poorly Will it come back that is an odd question as there is interest in getting maximum audience hype and 70mm has done that In fact the release of Batman in 70mm and in Digital sound in Ny the 70mm print outgrossed the digital one Many larger circuits have as of late resurected one dual guage projector in there largest screen in there larger market Will we ever see the return of smaller markets getting a flood of 70mm prints no but in the important major markets yes. Disney even has regularly struck 70mm prints still for premier screenings  |  IP: Logged Paul Linfesty Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1383 From: Bakersfield, CA, USA Registered: Nov 1999 posted 12-22-2003 01:22 AM                     quote: Batman in 70mm and in Digital sound in Ny the 70mm print outgrossed the digital one Batman was released in 1989 and featured 70mm mag prints and 35mm analog stereo optical prints only.  |  IP: Logged Aaron Sisemore Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day! Posts: 3061 From: Rockwall TX USA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 12-22-2003 01:58 AM                     I think Gord was referring to 'Batman Returns' which had a few select SRD prints out there at the time. -Aaron  |  IP: Logged Pravin Ratnam Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 844 From: Atlanta, GA,USA Registered: Sep 2002 posted 12-22-2003 02:14 AM                     First of all, studios can't expect regular moviefolk to rush to the very first 70MM release. The studios should be prepared to build a following with a few movies. They can't use one movie's failure to get large audiences as proof of the format's lack of marketability. At least start with blowups. Give the theaters some incentives to maintain the projection quality. I guess the studios, distributors and the theaters will have to work together like the NFL. Any entities which function like the Az Cardinals should be punished with less preferential movies. But for this to happen, all the big boys need to band together. Unfortunately, people like Sean Penn, while within their rights to debate politically, show little passion to mobilizing support for improving projection quality of the "art" they put out. They don't give a crap fighting for better working conditions for theater employees squeezed in by the economic model. Film personalities seem to have a lot of causes, but the way their movies are shown in theaters seems to be not a priority to them.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-22-2003 06:55 AM                        As others have pointed out, 70mm was never intended to be a mainstream release format, with every print of every film going to every theatre in 70mm. It was always a "special" format for the big houses, with maybe a handful of prints going to major cities. Ideally, these prints should go to the large screen houses which need them most. As for the future of 70mm, I can see two possibilities: possibility #1: exhibitors and distributors don't care about image quality and will use whatever format lets them get a picture on the screen as cheaply as possible without generating too many customer complaints. They don't care about the format (could be 35mm, 16mm, DLP, etc.), as long as it's cheaper than the alternatives and isn't so bad that it causes customers to go elsewhere. possibility #2: exhibitors and distributors realize that improvements in home viewing (DVD, HDTV, etc.) have "raised the bar" for film exhibition and necessitate that theatres (at least the "big" ones offer something special that customers can't get at home; if this were to happen, 70mm (and/or 10.1 sound) might indeed make a comeback. This might even encourage 65mm origination as a way of "future-proofing" a film to ensure that it looks good in whatever future home or theatrical formats become available (8k DLP, anyone?). Realistically, possibility #1 seems likely, although I can see a slim chance that 70mm exhibition of new titles may make a comeback, though I have a difficult time believing that it will ever be what it was in its heyday. At most, a few dozen prints might be struck of any given title, mostly in DTS. Still, that's better than what we have now, which is approximately zero 70mm prints of new titles.  |  IP: Logged Warren Smyth Expert Film Handler Posts: 158 From: Auckland ,New Zealand Registered: Aug 2003 posted 12-22-2003 07:55 AM                     Oh how I wish I could say "70mm is the way of the future". If you look at the reasons for the introduction of the larger formats in the 50s, it was to combat the effects of that little glowing monster in people's homes. Now you could say that the industry faces a similar challenge today - competition from DVDs and home cinema. It therefore seems reasonable to imagine that wide screen pictures in high resolution is the answer once more. Certainly if every film could be shot in 65mm and released on every screen in 70mm, the industry would once again have a major technical advantage over home entertainment, just as it did in the fifties. Will it happen? not in your wildest dreams. The problem is, the whole marketing and release pattern of films has changed. When 70mm was king back in the 60s and 70s, film titles were not released similtaneously so widely. Fewer prints would move around the country over a period of a couple of years. This was before the day of the multiplex. The prints had a longer shelf life. In a small country like New Zealand, we would get 4 or maybe 5 prints of a title to serve the whole country plus a 70mm print of a roadshow. Today, at least 50 is the norm. Thirty years ago, the 70mm print would run in five centres for several months. I ran a 70mm print of Oliver, for 6 months in one theatre. Sound of Music ran for 18 months in one location. The 35mm releases were held back in the same area until the 70mm print's run was complete. In this way, the maximum return was made from it. It is not unreasonable to assume that policies here were the same as those elsewhere.Incidentally, at that time we had 4 theatres running 70mm in the same street. Those days have passed, never to return. If you release a 70mm print today, with global simulaneous release, it becomes redundant quicker. At significantly higher cost, it can only play for a matter of weeks and it's run cannot be protected from competition from the 35mm release of the same title. It is the mass publicity that is created at the time a film is made, that has helped to facilitate this change of similaneous release. Ironicly the medium that conveys the hype so well visually is that same glowing monster in the home - television. Now I'm not saying that the resolution of movies is not going to match that of 70mm. One day it will, whether it be chemical or digital. The answer to combatting home entertainment today, lies in higher quality being universal on all screens, rather than just special engagements. It has to be cost effective and may come from finer emulsions initially. With the cost of digital space and speed dropping every year however, it has to be just a matter of time before higher resolution is produced universally in digital form. I just hope I don't see it in my lifetime.  |  IP: Logged

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