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Author Topic: What caused this film damage? Greg Mueller Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1687 From: Port Gamble, WA Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-01-2003 07:00 PM                        I've never seen damage like this on a print. On the sound track side you can see little dots in two loose rows, from top to bottom. On the next frame they are slightly different but in the same area. The projected image looks like two rows of electric ants marching from bottom to top. They also flicker as they move up the screen. The heads and tails DO NOT have this damage, so it was done while it was being shown. This is the first frame of reel one and it continues throughout the film. Never seen anything like it before. Who ever did this....STOP IT!  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-01-2003 07:16 PM                     Looks like a pad roller that has a tiny burr on it and is a little bit too tight to the sprocket. As the pad roller rotated, that burr placed little marks on the film. They aren't in a perfectly straight line as the film can wander a little bit on the sprockets as can the pad roller. However the marks inside the picture area do not suggest pad roller damage, so we may have something else to blame here. Perhaps older fire rollers? Whatever it is, it was something that was rotating, not something that the film dragged across. I have seen this kind of damage that was exclusive to the soundtrack area. Interestingly enough, it sounded like a scratched record when played with an exciter and an infared led, but sounded clean when played back with a red led.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-01-2003 07:21 PM                     I have seen a funky type of damage similar to this. Some people like to clean their sprockets with a toothbrush while the machine is running. One of the fibers of the brush gets caught in something and is pulled out by the spinning sprocket. Then when the film is threaded up it "whips" the film. The damage you see isn't exactly the same but it may suggest a similar problem... A burr or a nick in a roller or sprocket.  |  IP: Logged Greg Mueller Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1687 From: Port Gamble, WA Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-01-2003 07:24 PM                        The damage in the middle of the frame either does not continue or is not noticeable. This is a scope print, which stretches the ants out even more. Maybe it was hanging of the edge of a sound drum, like in a DP70 (not that a DP70 would dare do this) which had a rough edge?  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 10-01-2003 08:49 PM                     Is this a used print? Did it arrive in this condition or do you believe the damage occurred where you work? I doubt if you could reverse the damage and if it arrived like that then obviously there's nothing you can do to prevent further damage. Not that there's anything wrong with puzzling over it. I find it intriguing, actually. But if this damage is being caused by your equipment then I would look into the sound drum theory. I don't know a whole lot about your geographic region but down here -- high humidity and ocean air -- we have to really work hard to keep our sound drums from developing rusty spots which, as you might imagine, could easily cause that kind of damage.  |  IP: Logged Ken Lackner Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1907 From: Atlanta, GA, USA Registered: Sep 2001 posted 10-01-2003 09:23 PM                     Brad, what are fire rollers??  |  IP: Logged Greg Mueller Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1687 From: Port Gamble, WA Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-01-2003 09:39 PM                        The print came that way. I noticed it the first time through, so it was not my soundhead  |  IP: Logged Darryl Spicer Film God Posts: 3250 From: Lexington, KY, USA Registered: Dec 2000 posted 10-01-2003 09:54 PM                    Fire rollers were a special roller assembly that attached to the top of the projector head and bottom of projector head. They were mettal and designed with a close fit to help prevent a fire frome spreading to the film magazines when running nitrate film.  |  IP: Logged Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 10-01-2003 09:59 PM                        I can't think of any fire valve rollers that would case that damage, unless they were all rusty... but who would keep rusty fire valve rollers on their projector? Another thing that pops to mind is a dirt embedding sound head drum... but that doesn't explain the specs on the soundtrack area. Can you tell which side of the film the marks are on Greg? How old is the film? Any other defects?  |  IP: Logged Dave Macaulay Film God Posts: 2321 From: Toronto, Canada Registered: Apr 2001 posted 10-01-2003 10:00 PM                     fire rollers, or the fire trap rollers, are a set of smallish rollers at the exit or entrance film path on closed reel magazines. They were designed to put out burning nitrate film if the stuff got ignited in the gate - put it out before the fire hit the film rolls. They are solid metal rollers with very shallow flanges, they have to almost touch the film surface to douse any fire. They didn't actually work 100% but they were better than nothing, and one REALLY didn't want a full roll of nitrate stock catching fire!  |  IP: Logged Adam Martin I'm not even gonna point out the irony. Posts: 3686 From: Dallas, TX Registered: Nov 2000 posted 10-01-2003 11:58 PM                     Can you tell if the emulsion is physically nicked away or if it was printed like that? It could have been printed from a dirty/damaged negative (although that doesn't really explain the occurrence of the phenomenon in the soundtrack).  |  IP: Logged Antonio Marcheselli Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1260 From: Florence, Italy Registered: Mar 2000 posted 10-02-2003 06:40 AM                        Too big loops before/after the maltese sprockets? On some projector this causes the print to hit parts of the projector in the same parts. On projected image you would see a lot of white or black dots in the same area but not in the exactly same position. Bye A  |  IP: Logged Greg Mueller Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1687 From: Port Gamble, WA Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-02-2003 09:31 AM                        It's a 2002 film. I haven't got a microscope to closely examine the damage (wish I did) so it's hard to tell about the surface abrasion or puncturing. I guess I just assumed it was on the emulsion side  |  IP: Logged Christian Appelt Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 505 From: Frankfurt, Germany Registered: Dec 2001 posted 10-02-2003 04:23 PM                     If these spots or blotches are not emulsion damage, they may have occured during the developing of the release print. In developing equipment, there are rubber lips or air "squeegees" to take liquid of the film between baths, and I remember seeing such a damage on b&w film when small drops or bubbles of a chemical agent were not removed properly from the film. That´s a really strange effect. Were the leaders printed with the reel or spliced on later?  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 10-02-2003 04:28 PM                        I have never seen this kind of damage. To me it looks a bit like some guy took a fine red pencil and made red circles all over the print.  |  IP: Logged

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