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Author Topic: Film Vs "Film"
Chris Hipp
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1462
From: Mesquite, Tx (east of Dallas)
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted 08-13-2003 06:04 PM      Profile for Chris Hipp   Email Chris Hipp   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I always hear about how bad polyester film is and the problems it poses, but other than that it doesnt break in the projector I have not heard any other problems.

My question is, what are to positives and negatives of each type of film?

I am mostly referring to Nitrate, Acetate and polyester. Not necessarily the diferent quality film stocks.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 08-13-2003 06:25 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I seem to recall polyester prints being bad about picking up dust. A few years ago whenever a theater got a polyester print, you could pretty much count on having a lot of white (talcom?) powder clumped all over the thing. If you didn't use film cleaners and change them regularly the audiences would see movies with all kinds of blotches on them.

Polyester prints are stronger, but that can be a bad thing if you have something like a brain wrap happen. Has anyone ever had any serious damage done by a polyester print yanking on hardware?

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Chris Hipp
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1462
From: Mesquite, Tx (east of Dallas)
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted 08-13-2003 06:29 PM      Profile for Chris Hipp   Email Chris Hipp   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I dont know if it was related, but the day after we had a bad brain wrap on a house, the gear for the feed sprocket was stripped so bad that it wouldnt spin at all.

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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug

Posts: 7595
From: Hollywood, CA USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 08-13-2003 06:35 PM      Profile for Phil Hill   Email Phil Hill       Edit/Delete Post 
You bet Bobby! I've had a projector pulled across the booth floor by the film cuz a loop-cabinet jam. That Poly stuff is STRONG! That episode made me design in more failure sensors! [beer]

>>> Phil

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Aaron Sisemore
Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day!

Posts: 3061
From: Rockwall TX USA
Registered: Sep 1999


 - posted 08-14-2003 12:53 AM      Profile for Aaron Sisemore   Email Aaron Sisemore   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nitrate

Pros:

- Absolutely STUNNING image charactistics, especially in B/W.

Cons:

-Extremely flammable, therefore very dangerous if handled improperly.
-Most municipal fire codes prohibit running nitrate film these days, even if the equipment and booth is properly set up to run it.
-Deteriorates to dust with time if improperly cared for.

Acetate 'Safety Film'

Pros:

-Far less flammable than nitrate
-Does break under tension

Cons:

-Decomposes into acetic acid, cellulose and water after a period of time (the dreaded 'Vinegar Syndrome' that film collectors dread)
-Is fragile to the point that major damage can occur if mishandled (perf damage, splitting)

Polyester film (Estar® is Kodak's brand name for the stock)

Pros:

-Far stronger than nitrate or acetate stocks
-Withstands handling that would cause horrible damage to acetate stock better
-Will not decompose with the passage of time (at least as far as we know at present)

Cons:

-Does not easily break, potentially causing major equipment and print damage
-Cannot be spliced with cement splicers
-Stretches under extreme tension, usually causing the 'Spongy print effect')
-Generates and picks up static electricity charges easier than acetate, leading to complications in projection (Kodak and others are perfecting the anti-static properties of poly stocks)
-Easily abrades or 'sheds' fine white powder (Especially B/W and IB receiver stocks) unless properly lubricated (Film-Guard or edgewaxing)

-Aaron

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002


 - posted 08-14-2003 07:00 AM      Profile for Stephen Furley   Email Stephen Furley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In the beginning there was only nitrate, so people didn't really consider advantages and disadvantages. Early in the 20th century Cellulose Diacetate safety film was introduced; it quickly became almost universal for home systems, such as the Pathe KOK 28mm format, introduced in 1912. In this application the highly flamable nitrate film had always been recognised as being undesirable, and was replaced by safety stock as soon as it became available.

The diacetate stock did, however have a number of disadvantages compared to nitrate:

It was more expensive.

It was less tough, and therefore stood up less well to repeated projection.

It was more difficult to cement splice, and a splice was more likely to break during projection.

Due to serious accidents with nitrate film in the early days, most countries introduced strict safety regulations governing its storage, handling and use. In the UK these were contained in the Cinematograph Act of 1909, which came into force in January 1910, and led to the construction of many new, purpose-built cinemas in that year. Similar regulations were introduced in other countries. I don't know if you have ever seen a nitrate projection box, or storage vaults, but if you have you will realise that they took the risks seriously!

These regulations made the use or nitrate film reasonably safe, and this, combined with the disadvantages of diacetate kept nitrate film in general use in professional cinemas.

Triacetate safety stock was intended to overcome the disadvantages of diacetate film, and this it did, to a large extent, unlike diacetate, it was seen as an acceptable replacement for nitrate, which ceased being manufactured fairly soon after thhe introduction of triacetate. It was thought at the time of its introduction that it was chemically more stable than nitrate, but it is now known that under certain conditions of high temperature and humidity it can deteriorate faster than nitrate; the so-called 'vinagar syndrome'. This process can also be accelerated by iron oxide, rust from cans, magnetic striping and storing rolls of 16mm print and magnetic track together in a 35mm can, as was often done with television material, can all cause problems.

Nitrate and triacetate can both survive in good condition for many years, there is material from the earliest days still in good condition, but both can deteriorate rapidly under poor storage conditions. There probably isn't much difference between nitrate and triacetate from this point of view.

Nitrate film contains a plasticiser, often camphor, which is gradually lost in time, causing the film to become more brittle, this happens more quickly at high temperatures. Surviving diacetate also tends to be quite brittle now.

Polyester film has also been around for a long time, but has only recently been widely used for motion picture stocks. Fuji single 8 film was on polyester since its introduction in the '60s. Polyester is much tougher than other bases, and is almost impossible to tear. It has had problems with static, but these seem to have been reduced to a large extent in recent times. It may scratch somewhat more easily than triacetate and nitrate, and it cannot be cement spliced. Polyester film is much more dimensionally stable than other stocks, nitrate, in particular was subject to considerable shrinkage.

Both triacetate and polyester can be magnetic striped, nitrate and diacetate had been replaced by the time magnetic sound was introduced. The oxide in the stripe can cause problems with triacetate, as mentioned earlier, and getting the stripe to adhere to polyseter caused problems in the early days, but improved stripe emulsions were developed for polyester stocks.

Nitrate, diacetate, triacetate and polyester are the most common base materials, but there have been others. There is a post from Leo Enticknap, in response to a question from myself, in a thread entitled 'nitrate film', in this forum which describes the properties of propionate and butyrate film.

A normal cinema is unlikely to see anything other than triacetate and polyester now, but nitrate is by no means extinct. Large amounts of it still exist, and it is handled as an everyday procedure in archives and specialised labs. The British Film Institute alone has about 140 million feet of it in their vaults.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-14-2003 10:30 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Information about film base:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h1/base.shtml

Deterioration of cellulose nitrate and cellulose triacetate film is greatly slowed by proper film storage. Cool and dry storage is known to slow the reactions that cause "vinegar syndrome" (hydrolysis of the film base) and dye fading. Vented storage (or sealed storage with Molecular Sieves) helps prevent the buildup of moisture and acid vapors that can accelerate degradation. Periodic inspection of the film by careful rewinding is recommended to look for any degradation, as well as allowing the film to "breathe" and relieve winding stresses:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/technical/storage1.shtml

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/technical/vinegar.shtml

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/technical/molecular.shtml

http://www.rit.edu/~661www1/sub_pages/8contents.htm

http://www.amianet.org/11_Information/Information.html

http://www.sentex.net/~ritchpat/danchek.html

http://evora.omega.it/~demos/faol/references.htm#

http://www.smpte.org/smpte_store/standards/ (SMPTE RP131 Storage of Motion Picture Film)

Polyester motion picture film was introduced by Dupont in a paper published in the December 1955 SMPTE Journal: "Polyester Photographic Film Base" by White, Gass, Meschter, and Holm, Volume 64, pages 674-678. Kodak licensed the technology, and began producing ESTAR base motion picture materials in the late 1950's, which were widely used for industrial, educational, and special venue (e.g., Disney theme parks,IMAX) theatres. Kodak did NOT recommend the use of polyester prints for 35mm general release prints.

The need to fit more (thinner) film on mini-platters, and the desire to eliminate perforation damage, led NATO and distributors to ask for conversion to polyester print film in the early 1990's. In 1990, NATO's Technical Advancement Committee resolved to "approve and recommend the use of polyester film, which is thinner (allowing more film per reel) and less liable to break" (NATO News and Views, January 1991, page 6).

When polyester print film (mostly from other manufacturers) was first being used for 35mm theatrical features in the early 1990's, many problems were reported, and Kodak warned of the issues of static generation, projection abrasion, and the need for proper equipment design and tension-sensing failsafes. I presented data from an early polyester print release ("Mr. Wonderful") at ShoWest on March 8, 1994, discussing these issues.

During the 1990's Kodak invested over $200 Million in research and development, and capital expenditure for a new base making machine, that led to the development of today's Kodak VISION Color Print Film, which has a proprietary conductive scratch-resistant coating on the ESTAR base, as well as enhanced lubrication, to reduce static charging and provide protection from projector abrasion:

http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/corp/pressReleases/pr19960509-01.shtml

http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/motion/newsletters/inCamera/fall98/print.shtml

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William H. Ward
Film Handler

Posts: 27
From: SAn Antonio, Texas
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted 08-23-2003 10:14 AM      Profile for William H. Ward   Email William H. Ward   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Let me ask this question: Has the problem of mylar tape splices on mylar/poly film been solved as to stretching at the splice? We had problems with prints of this nature. If you let this go for a while, you could be guaranteed a projector pull over or stripped gears....

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-23-2003 03:16 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Has the problem of mylar tape splices on mylar/poly film been solved as to stretching at the splice?
If your tape splices are stretching to the point of folding up or jamming during projection, you really should be getting better quality splicing tape. Or perhaps you have excessive tension somewhere in the film path? Tension-sensing failsafes should always be used, especially in the path from the platter feed to the projector.

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Michael Gonzalez
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 790
From: Grand Island , NE USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 08-24-2003 12:31 AM      Profile for Michael Gonzalez   Email Michael Gonzalez   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My apologies John since I did't go through all you links and thus don't know if the answer is in there some where but... Is all polyester film stock created equal? In my experance polyester film can very from print to print. Some are more fragile than others, some tends to shed more and I swear that there are times, when moving prints, that the smaller prints can be heaver than prints that are a reel or so longer. Is this my imagination or can someone explain this?

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000


 - posted 08-24-2003 12:52 AM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some prints out there use the Fuji Film stock. I have seen the use of fuji on New Line and Warners bros. films but can show up with other films. Kodak applies a static guard coating to I believe the base side of the film. (John can correct me if I am wrong.) As far as the weight differance I don't know unless like I said the stocks are different.

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Chris Hipp
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1462
From: Mesquite, Tx (east of Dallas)
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted 08-24-2003 01:30 AM      Profile for Chris Hipp   Email Chris Hipp   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I thought 007 Die another die was extremely heavy for a 7 reel print.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-24-2003 07:12 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
All 35mm Kodak VISION Color Print Films use the SAME ESTAR base support. It is 0.0047 inches thick and has a scratch-resistant conductive backing that helps dissipates static charging and dirt attraction. When Kodak introduced the new film, many immediately noticed that Kodak prints no longer attracted dirt since there was much less static charge, and you no longer got shocks as you rewound the film.

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/lab/2383.shtml

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/lab/2393.shtml

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/lab/h12395t.shtml

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h1/base.shtml

http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/corp/pressReleases/pr19960509-01.shtml

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Robb Johnston
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 147
From: St. Louis Suburbs
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 08-26-2003 05:08 PM      Profile for Robb Johnston   Author's Homepage   Email Robb Johnston   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One area where I have found polyester prints causing damage is with Cinemeccanica V-4 Projectors and brainwraps.

Due to the design of the projector, if there is a brainwrap, the film gets pulled into the sound drum and rubs across the solar cell, often scratching, chipping or breaking the solar cell off. I have heard of a few locations that snug the solar cell into place instead of tightening it all the way down so the cell gets pushed back and not snapped off, with much less damage to the face of the solar cell.

There is a point where the cell is tightened enough that it will not move in normal running of film, but not so tight that the polyester stock snaps it instead of pushing it back.

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Rick Long Jr
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 211
From: Toronto, Canada
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 08-26-2003 08:43 PM      Profile for Rick Long Jr   Email Rick Long Jr   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Not only on Vic-4's but 5's, 8's 9's 10's,18's, Pretty much all of them. I've probably replaced dozens of cells on Cinemeccanicas. Fortunately, they've changed the design of their sound drums so that the inner shoulder extends outward leaving a gap where the cell or L.E.D.'s sit. It's also undercut so that it does not contact the image area. They include the new shaft with their reverse scan upgrade kit. As well, the BACP kits come with a round clamp that works quite well.

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